What is an argument?

[tsuki]

@Outer How do you expect to put people on a path you don't understand?
Not only you are trying to be wiser than others, but you also think that you outsmarted yourself.
Isn't that a bit narcissistic?

[tsuki]

6 minutes ago, Outer said:

I'm talking about spiritual narcissists. Who think they are more enlightened than they are.

And what if they actually are as enlightened as they think?
Do you think that you are capable of recognizing an enlightened master?
Isn't that an expression of your assumption that you are wiser than others?

[tsuki]

@Outer And why an enlightened master would want to prove his enlightenment to you?
Would you tell a Zen master to waltz into an fmri scanner for you? I think that you're being unreasonable.
How many enlightened masters have done that?

[Truth]

 

@tsuki Interpretation is everything. You can interpret something to be used for yours and other people’s highest evolution or you can interpret something to be negative and destructive for yourself and everyone else's evolution and everything in between. So notice what you’re seeing and be mindful of what you’re interpreting, and be mindful of what you’re saying to others and how people are interpreting it. Because how you interpret it and how other people interpret it will directly correlate to the quality of life for both individuals. You can’t control their interpretations, but you can control yours. And of course there are things you can do to influence their interpretations so they see your message not of hate, ego or attacking but as a message that says “I’m here to help you, even if my message doesn’t or can’t help you.” This is why “spiritual woowoo words” deliver a language that does it’s best to imply a message of help, not attack.

 

Here on the forum it’s a little trickier because the communication/information being sent is a lot more limited compared to talking in person. So people are forced to jump to more conclusions and more assumptions based on their past history, direct experience, highest wisdom and what they’re currently perceiving or interpreting in the present moment. This is why psychologist Albert Mehrabian created this ratio of 7% is what you say, 35% is tone and 55% is body language. So here on the forum you’re just left with 7% and the rest you gotta fill in, that’s why I personally just push everything I’m interpreting on this forum out there in order to see what kind of feedback I get, and there’s definitely some strengths and weaknesses to this lol.

[tsuki]

@Truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonocentrism

To control your own interpretation you have to interpret it.
How do you interpret interpretation of interpretation?
Can you control that? What are qualities of a good interpretation of an interpretation?

@Outer So - your choice of enlightened masters is dependent on your understanding of what enlightenment is?
You seek enlightenment because you don't know what it is and yet - you predicate your path on your lacking understanding?

[Truth]

12 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@Truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonocentrism

To control your own interpretation you have to interpret it.
How do you interpret interpretation of interpretation?
Can you control that? What are qualities of a good interpretation of an interpretation?

Lol I'm talking about incorporating it all not limiting it to some belief or "phonocentrism". This is why I use meme's and images too. 

Controlling interpretation is just being conscious and aware of it.

Good qualities of interpretations for example: Are focusing on things that cultivate the highest potential for yourself and for all. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Truth

[tsuki]

20 minutes ago, Outer said:

I know what enlightenment is.

Tell me then. I would very much like to know, as I don't know myself .
Isn't it the root cause of your distress about other people lying though?
That you think that you know what enlightenment is? That you measure other people's enlightenment through your personal interpretation of it?

Isn't that what all arguments are about? Trying to establish definitions?
That my cake is better because it has strawberries?

Edited May 18, 2018 by tsuki

[tsuki]

2 minutes ago, Outer said:

Enlightenment is the permanent cessation of thought to different degrees. I'd call it awakening though.

And what is thought, exactly?

@Truth I'll get back to you bro, just hang on .

[tsuki]

9 minutes ago, Outer said:

Thought is mostly self-referential language that is only observable to oneself.

Is it then fair to say that you are always arguing with yourself when you argue with other people?
That you miss the point that you always respond to your own interpretation of other people's words?

This is self-reference at its prime. You are not talking to me, but to an image of me that you formed.
There is no inherent, transmittable meaning in my words. You make the meaning up as you read these words.

To say that you are arguing about anything, or that you measure other people's enlightenment is an absurdity.
You are always the other people. Just as there is no me. There is a monitor, pixels and breath. You made me up.

Edited May 18, 2018 by tsuki

[tsuki]

1 minute ago, Outer said:

Unless you want to say that everything is one's own interpretation but I don't see the point in that.

That is precisely what I'm trying to say.

[tsuki]

2 minutes ago, Outer said:

Okay. That doesn't change anything.

 

8 minutes ago, Outer said:

To say that you are arguing about anything, or that you measure other people's enlightenment is an absurdity.
I don't know how the first part is connected with the second part of your sentence.

It does. You are always arguing and measuring yourself when you miss the fact that you interpret other people's behavior.

Edited May 18, 2018 by tsuki

[Truth]

7 minutes ago, Outer said:

Unless you want to say that everything is one's own interpretation but I don't see the point in that.

Lol except for the fact that the quality of your life depends on it? 

 

[Guest Quanty]

Arguing it has to do with reasoning (mind). Enlightenment is beyond reason. 

[Nahm]

13 minutes ago, Truth said:

Lol except for the fact that the quality of your life depends on it? 

 

THIS.

Nonduality. 

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, Truth said:

Lol I'm talking about incorporating it all not limiting it to some belief or "phonocentrism". This is why I use meme's and images too. 

Controlling interpretation is just being conscious and aware of it.

Good qualities of interpretations for example: Are focusing on things that cultivate the highest potential for yourself and for all. 

What I was trying to say is that it is inherently impossible to use interpretation for any benefit.
To use is to evaluate. Interpretation is an evaluation. To use an interpretation is to evaluate evaluation. That is an evaluation in itself.
It is an illusion of control to say that one can choose how to interpret things.
There is no meta-morality to defer the evaluation to, as the meta-morality is a matter of amoral choice that does not depend on reason (evaluation).

The link that I posted referred to the second paragraph where you proposed difficulty in communication because of written language.
It is not any more difficult. The idea is critiqued by Derrida and the link contains it. 

Not that I'm pointing any errors in your post though. It's up to you what you do with the knowledge I directed you towards.

Edited May 18, 2018 by tsuki

[Truth Addict]

@Outer

No offence bro. But if there's any definition for arguing, it would absolutely be what you're doing here.

Cut that, it's not healthy. Investigate through all the dogmas you have, you'll have some nice results.

[Rilles]

If you are so nondual, or so self-realized, why are you wasting so much of your time fighting others? This is such a rookie mistake.

The reality is that nonduality is a difficult thing to teach, no matter by what method. Traps are numerous NO MATTER WHICH PATH YOU TAKE. There is no such thing as the perfect path. There is no such thing as a path with no downsides or traps or potential for delusion. Any path you take can be misused. Any teaching you hear can be misused. Any teaching can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Any teaching can be nitpicked and criticized into ill-repute if one so desires. You can easily write a massive diatribe about every single spiritual teacher and spiritual path ever devised by man. And you would be half-right.

But all of this is just an ideology game. It's a fundamental failure to understand the other person. It's also rather annoying to moderate and creates idle controversy where none really exists. Not only does it turn good people against each other, it's false and ignorant.

- Leo Gura

[tsuki]

5 minutes ago, Outer said:

If I already knew what you tried to teach me, what does that say about what you wanted to teach me?

Nothing! I was playing a mirror for you so that you know yourself!
This it the illusion of time/cause and effect @Faceless always talks about!

[tsuki]

4 minutes ago, Outer said:

This has nothing to do with enlightenment.

Boom, and you're back.
I'm sorry man. Good luck!

That's predicated on your notion of what enlightenment is.
See the self-reference? You reject what does not fit your agenda.

It's okay.

Edited May 18, 2018 by tsuki

[Rilles]

3 minutes ago, Outer said:

If that happens then this desert of a forum will be filled of teddy bears who spout new age cuddly words to each other to reinforce their already held beliefs.

So much passive aggressiveness in this post. But I guess thats just my projection.