Interesting Glimpse- Life and Death both are Mental Constructs

[Preetom]

As I was doing a combination of self inquiry and mindfulness with labeling, I came to a direct realization that what I call 'me' is just a combination of experiences(Mostly subtle inner feelings)...just groundless, hollow experiences. What I thought as alive turned out to be another experience when I inquired sincerely.

Right that moment I realized what I call 'me' is just inert, dead, meaningless objects/experiences. What I thought I was, is already dead. In other words, it was never alive. Then the realization came that Life and Death both are mental constructs. Life, Death these are just empty words which really doesn't point to anything real. Just like a thought, these are more concepts.

 

[tsuki]

Have you ever discovered in your direct experience that life and death are a single, never ending phenomenon?
They are a concept in the traditional sense of decaying of the physical body, but there is another, more profound sense that can be directly observed.

[Preetom]

Just now, tsuki said:

Have you ever discovered in your direct experience that life and death are a single, never ending phenomenon?

I honestly don't grasp what you are trying to convey. All I saw was that what I knew as reality/me is just a bunch of experiences glued together.

When I sincerely looked at an experience, nothing called 'life' was found in there. No matter how subtle or intense or quick that experience was.

Whatever I pointed to was yet another experience, there is nothing called 'me' which is alive. And when 'life' does not make any sense empirically, 'Death' does not either.

If you now ask what is the 'experiencer' if everything is experience? I would say I have no idea what that experiencer is. Whatever idea I have about that experiencer is yet another experience. 

All I feel is that I exist. But I don't know what it is that exists. Even that feeling of existing is another subtle experience.

mind=fucked  

[tsuki]

What I refer to has two facets. Let me describe one of them to you in terms of what I understood from your experience.

There is a certain 'mechanical', 'automatic', 'empty' and 'dead' quality to existence as perceived through your newly discovered state of consciousness.
The 'life' aspect of it comes from recognition that it is in fact you. It has always been that way, but you weren't paying attention.
The feelings and experiences are as dead by themselves as you saw them, but they aren't normally like that at all.
Normally, they are vibrant and alive. It doesn't make them any less real than the ones you saw under the hood.
Do not mistake it for an achievement of conscious behavior. You were simply allowed to peek behind the curtain.
Life/death deemed you harmless enough to trust you with this knowledge.

What I gained from this experience is the feeling of reassurance that life will take care of itself whether I like it or not.
That consciousness is a tiny fragment of me that I identify with. That tries to take reign over the whole of existence.
This it the root cause of anxiety - overidentification with conscious behavior.
Being humbled by the dead nature of life is a very potent cure.

Edited May 16, 2018 by tsuki

[Preetom]

@tsuki Thanks for sharing your realizations. So much to look forward to..yet its all here 

[tsuki]

@now is forever Man, you question is awesome and I would love to answer it, but I have to get back to work.
I will get back to you later on today.

[tsuki]

3 hours ago, now is forever said:

the question is: why would god want to wake up from its dream out of nothingness, that is and is not at the same time just to be only nothingness again?

@now is forever I don't think that there is any 'wanting' involved. It is perfectly mechanical and 'will' is just a manifestation of its operation.
I also think that there is no way to train ego to do anything, as ego doesn't exist.
Ego is like the periphery of your vision. The boundary between seen and unseen.
It is in effect when you miss that you are all of it - the seen and unseen.
Everybody, always, misses that. Even the nondual, enlightened folk.

When you look at a cup to examine it, you are not aware what is at the other side of the cup.
If you turn the cup around, it always has the other side that you don't see.
You can stand in front of a mirror and look at the other side, but you are now looking at a mirror, not at a cup.
Even worse, you are not looking at both sides simultaneously. You can still look at one side at a time.
If you align a cup in a way that it would show you both sides at the same time - you will obstruct its reflection in the mirror.
You always, necessarily look at something from a certain perspective.
Even if you employ a mirror, which is a metaphor for self-awareness/the mind.

So, you are always stuck at a certain perspective even if you know, that there is the other side.
You may think that you're smart and know that there is the other side, but you never know how it will manifest itself, so you cannot take account for it.
When you have a plan that accounts for your truth/perspective, the other side will manifest itself.
If you greet it with curiosity and openness - you have to let go of your plan.
If you greet it firmly and try to conquer it - you have to let go of the results.
Knowledge will not let you recognize the other side. Intuition will. It is always different.
It always goes meta on itself.

There is no way to outsmart it, as you are it.
@Preetom has experienced it as a dead, mechanical thing that runs. That is correct.
The alive quality of reality comes from the fact that you defend yourself against the other side.
The moment that you start to think that you are smarter than reality, it stops being dead and starts to be alive.
The game is on and you are the prey. It will remind you of your place.
It will dominate you and show you how insignificant your spark of consciousness is.
The sharper and smarter you are, the smarter and sharper it is. It's in perfect balance, as the seen and the unseen are symmetric.
You can only witness intelligence in its dead, mechanical, nature if you submit to it and help it. Not the other way around.
Then, there is no benefit or utility in using it, but there is only beauty.
The less you that benefits and controls is, the faster and faster it runs.
The more beautiful it becomes. Pure bliss.

Edited May 16, 2018 by tsuki

[Highest]

That's one aspect of ''me'', it goes deeper than experiences. It's about identification, which goes deep down. If you don't identify yourself with anything, not even existence itself, what remains?

[Nahm]

5 hours ago, Preetom said:

As I was doing a combination of self inquiry and mindfulness with labeling, I came to a direct realization that what I call 'me' is just a combination of experiences(Mostly subtle inner feelings)...just groundless, hollow experiences. What I thought as alive turned out to be another experience when I inquired sincerely.

Right that moment I realized what I call 'me' is just inert, dead, meaningless objects/experiences. What I thought I was, is already dead. In other words, it was never alive. Then the realization came that Life and Death both are mental constructs. Life, Death these are just empty words which really doesn't point to anything real. Just like a thought, these are more concepts.

 

Awesome breakthrough! Keep going.  ♥️♥️♥️

[Guest Quanty]

Exactly. 

Beyond the mind, one can extend his/her life, maybe indefinitely. If the majority experienced death as a whole body, it is the possibility to reverse aging. I say all this because i discovered something exceptional in the arts of Healing. And Awakening goes hand in hand with Healing. 

 

[Viking]

17 minutes ago, Highest said:

That's one aspect of ''me'', it goes deeper than experiences. It's about identification, which goes deep down. If you don't identify yourself with anything, not even existence itself, what remains?

what is identification? im at exactly the same point as op, the self is just part of the whole, but it seems like that's it. everything is meaningless, therefore everything just is, therefore its empty, including the ego, "i" am not the ego, it's all just being, and the ego is inside of it, i dont control anything because i am nothing, theres no such thing as "i", theres only being/consciousness. but i dont carry that around with me into everyday life, i always forget that (like just now writing the sentence, I could say that this "knowledge" isnt usually present in consciousness). i think that theres something deeper but it seems like i cant go anywhere from here, it feels like im at the bottom.

[Nahm]

@Viking The self is not part of the whole.  The ‘whole’ is part of the self, within it, a piece, a fragment, one concept, that’s all. Self is all encompassing, and beyond the beliefs the illusion is real or “whole”.  There’s actually no such thing as whole, just a contingency belief relative to belief in parts. BUT...the experience, Oneness / Whole, is a solid & wonderful place along the path. 

[Faceless]

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

I don't think that there is any 'wanting' involved. It is perfectly mechanical and 'will' is just a manifestation of its operation.
I also think that there is no way to train ego to do anything, as ego doesn't exist.
Ego is like the periphery of your vision. The boundary between seen and unseen.
It is in effect when you miss that you are all of it - the seen and unseen.
Everybody, always, misses that. Even the nondual, enlightened folk.

Yes I agree with this. It’s pretty easy to tell who is caught in there own Jazz

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

When you look at a cup to examine it, you are not aware what is at the other side of the cup.
If you turn the cup around, it always has the other side that you don't see.
You can stand in front of a mirror and look at the other side, but you are now looking at a mirror, not at a cup.
Even worse, you are not looking at both sides simultaneously. You can still look at one side at a time.
If you align a cup in a way that it would show you both sides at the same time - you will obstruct its reflection in the mirror.
You always, necessarily look at something from a certain perspective.
Even if you employ a mirror, which is a metaphor for self-awareness/the mind.

?? Explained well once again. 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

So, you are always stuck at a certain perspective even if you know, that there is the other side.
You may think that you're smart and know that there is the other side, but you never know how it will manifest itself, so you cannot take account for it.
When you have a plan that accounts for your truth/perspective, the other side will manifest itself.
If you greet it with curiosity and openness - you have to let go of your plan.
If you greet it firmly and try to conquer it - you have to let go of the results.
Knowledge will not let you recognize the other side. Intuition will. It is always different.
It always goes meta on itself.

Yep although I see intuition as a movement of mind. I see it as insight. We have gone into that. But I know what your saying and agree. 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

The alive quality of reality comes from the fact that you defend yourself against the other side

For me when all “defending” ceases so does this movement to capture reality with the intellect. It’s pretty fair to say that thought/intellect is a movement of defense/control. To maintain permanence of self/ego. 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

Then, there is no benefit or utility in using it, but there is only beauty.
The less you that benefits and controls is, the faster and faster it runs.
The more beautiful it becomes. Pure bliss.

Yes this is where the essence of beauty “pure bliss” arises. When the one who benefits, controls ends. 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Faceless

[Viking]

53 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Viking The self is not part of the whole.  The ‘whole’ is part of the self, within it, a piece, a fragment, one concept, that’s all. Self is all encompassing, and beyond the beliefs the illusion is real or “whole”.  There’s actually no such thing as whole, just a contingency belief relative to belief in parts. BUT...the experience, Oneness / Whole, is a solid & wonderful place along the path. 

if i said "self" i meant ego, which is encompassed in the whole. by whole i mean experience, being, you might call it "self"

[Preetom]

Just now, Highest said:

If you don't identify yourself with anything, not even existence itself, what remains?

I have no idea. Its just silence without any discrimination. even the thought 'I am observing' is also gone. I think this is the state I need to familiarize myself more and more until a irreversible breakthrough occurs.

Just now, Viking said:

what is identification? im at exactly the same point as op, the self is just part of the whole, but it seems like that's it. everything is meaningless, therefore everything just is, therefore its empty, including the ego, "i" am not the ego, it's all just being, and the ego is inside of it, i dont control anything because i am nothing, theres no such thing as "i", theres only being/consciousness. but i dont carry that around with me into everyday life, i always forget that (like just now writing the sentence, I could say that this "knowledge" isnt usually present in consciousness). i think that theres something deeper but it seems like i cant go anywhere from here, it feels like im at the bottom.

That's not how I do self inquiry. I tend to release all sorts of notions about ego/whole/nothingness/enlightenment etc. I just observe my direct experience and I consider every single movement of perception, thoughts and ideas as experience. I think its helpful to let go of these notions if you wanna keep up the observation. Or else the all theories about ego,enlightenment etc keeps creating more thoughts and expectations which easily can lead to frustration.

Just now, Quanty said:

Beyond the mind, one can extend his/her life, maybe indefinitely. If the majority experienced death as a whole body, it is the possibility to reverse aging. 

That sounds like an obsession with the physical body to me. I mean I feel boundless sometimes and why should I bother myself about this limited body? I feel like the only reason we have a physical body is to transcend it, not to make it a permanent abode.

Just now, Nahm said:

Awesome breakthrough! Keep going.  ♥️♥️♥️

thank you 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Preetom

[Viking]

8 minutes ago, Preetom said:

That's not how I do self inquiry. I tend to release all sorts notion about ego/whole/nothingness/enlightenment etc. I just observe my direct experience and I consider every single movement of perception, thoughts and ideas as experience. I think its helpful to let go of these notions if you wanna keep up the observation. Or else the all theories about ego,enlightenment etc keeps creating more thoughts and expectations which easily can lead to frustration.

where did i use theory precisely? as i meant it all there is, is the present experience, no theories involved, maybe i used enlightenment concepts just to explain

[Faceless]

7 hours ago, Preetom said:

As I was doing a combination of self inquiry and mindfulness with labeling, I came to a direct realization that what I call 'me' is just a combination of experiences(Mostly subtle inner feelings)...just groundless, hollow experiences. What I thought as alive turned out to be another experience when I inquired sincerely.

Right that moment I realized what I call 'me' is just inert, dead, meaningless objects/experiences. What I thought I was, is already dead. In other words, it was never alive. Then the realization came that Life and Death both are mental constructs. Life, Death these are just empty words which really doesn't point to anything real. Just like a thought, these are more concepts.

 

??

All this “me” is an accumulation of static impressions. 

 

[Faceless]

7 hours ago, tsuki said:

Have you ever discovered in your direct experience that life and death are a single, never ending phenomenon?
They are a concept in the traditional sense of decaying of the physical body, but there is another, more profound sense that can be directly observed.

No center and all as center. ?

A cessation of all static conditioned movement/content of mind that tends to project itself as a particular experience. 

[Preetom]

Just now, Faceless said:

??

All this “me” is an accumulation of static impressions. 

Exactly!

Just now, Viking said:

where did i use theory precisely? as i meant it all there is, is the present experience, no theories involved, maybe i used enlightenment concepts just to explain

I think I got confused as we understand the same words like self, whole in different meanings. Anyway what I really wanna convey is that we can't know for sure what realization will happen when by thinking after meditation sessions . The only valid path is honest observation and the insights will come on their own accord.

[Faceless]

7 hours ago, Preetom said:

I honestly don't grasp what you are trying to convey. All I saw was that what I knew as reality/me is just a bunch of experiences glued together.

When I sincerely looked at an experience, nothing called 'life' was found in there. No matter how subtle or intense or quick that experience was.

Whatever I pointed to was yet another experience, there is nothing called 'me' which is alive. And when 'life' does not make any sense empirically, 'Death' does not either.

If you now ask what is the 'experiencer' if everything is experience? I would say I have no idea what that experiencer is. Whatever idea I have about that experiencer is yet another experience. 

All I feel is that I exist. But I don't know what it is that exists. Even that feeling of existing is another subtle experience.

mind=fucked  

I understand this point of view.

As long as mind is still in movement there will be this recognition of experience. It’s when the center ceases that there is not even an “i am” 

There is no self awareness at all. So Actually no point in even naming this non-experience. 

It is more like a immeasurable/timeless nonbeing.  

With no particular point of reference, view, or vantage point. 

Quite hard to explain. Actually totally impossible to even interpret it at all. Because I am never there.

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Faceless