Problem with 'A Rant Against Naive Realism'

[Steph30]

Hi all

Leo and self actualization community tend to say that reality is not physical and this world is not real and it's our mind that creates the experience and tricks us into thinking that physical world is real world.

This insight helps me a lot with depression and anxiety but I have a question.

How it is only our mind that creates the reality if things that we have no knowledge of works for us?

for example why a medication works in someone who is unconscious in hospital?

Or how we bump into material things in a dark place that we never been in there before? Our mind didn't know that thing was there so how we bump into it if it's only mind that creates the reality and physical things actually do not exist?

Edited May 15, 2018 by Steph30

[InfinitePotential]

Good questions.

You're assuming your mind is limited to what you hold conscious.

I like Bernardo Kastrup's take on this matter... he feels that the word "unconscious" is a misnomer. Instead, certain aspects of reality are merely obfuscated from your conscious awareness. (His books and videos are highly recommended).

Just like, even though when you look up during a sunny day at the blue sky and don't see any stars, they're still there. The light from the sun is just obfuscating your awareness of them... you're too focused on the light from the sun to see them. Similarly, when you're listening intently to your date at a restaurant, you can't hear all of the other conversations which are clearly in your earshot.

Similarly for medications for someone who is seemingly unconscious, or objects in dark rooms.

https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/the-true-nature-of-the-unconscious/

[zoey101]

45 minutes ago, Steph30 said:

Or how we bump into material things in a dark place that we never been in there before? Our mind didn't know that thing was there so how we bump into it if it's only mind that creates the reality and physical things actually do not exist?

You gotta remember that even though you have never been in the dark room or ever saw the object, someone did lol

Someone, with their own ego and thoughts, chose to place that object where it was. Now, if we are all connected, and all one, it would make sense that if one person decided to make that side table a reality in it's fixed location, then it will be in all of our reality  

I hope that makes sense  

[tsuki]

@Steph30

As you start to examine your assumptions, you will discover that there is no ground to the claim that reality is material.
The key point here is that nobody has ever claimed that. You assumed that out of blue and forgot that assumption.
Materialism is a very useful paradigm for exploring reality, but it is just a story that we tell ourselves to forget things.
We need to forget in order to act. We forget that we don't know and that we don't understand reality. It's just too much.

From your first person perspective, there is no basis to claim that anything caused any other thing.
Any causality is a feeling, or a hunch. It just obviously looks that way.
There are different kinds of ways to describe obviousness and science has good (practical) standards.
These are just that - standards for saying how much looking/investigating is too much.
Obviousness and causality is a way of saying to yourself: enough is enough. I'm not looking any deeper.

As you go deeper and deeper into assumptions, you will discover that there is no basis for claiming anything.
That we are fundamentally ignorant of what reality is. We make up stories and forget that we made them up.
The forgetting of the origin of stories is reification of reality. Reality becomes that.

This is why we say that reality is an illusion. Not that there is no reality, but that there is nothing more real than what you see.
There is nothing to fall back to when you come out of an illusion. You transcend illusions by calling things reality.
There is no ultimate reality that underlies everything. It is all you.
Reality is illusion. The perfect, infinitely deep and flawless illusion.

I hope that answers your questions and even if they are valid and understandable - I can't honestly answer them.

[Guest Quanty]

Physical is just an infinite speed of the frequency of the unseen.

Reality depends on the point of view. 

[Girzo]

1 hour ago, Steph30 said:

Or how we bump into material things in a dark place that we never been in there before? Our mind didn't know that thing was there so how we bump into it if it's only mind that creates the reality and physical things actually do not exist?

You have got it ass backwards.

Things exist, they are just non-material. In your way of thinking, you would be better off by saying that the mind is what doesn't exist. Thoughts, emotions, sensations or physical objects are all made of the same material and occupy the same space. They are made of Consciousness and take place inside a Consciousness is a one way to put it into words. 

The fact that there's no division between physical reality and the mind doesn't mean that only one of those ideas is real and you have to ditch the other. No, they both are wrong and you have to get rid of them both to make a place for a new understanding. Reasoning alone won't get you there, you need to start "seeing" it beyond simple thoughts.

Your whole line of reasoning lies on an unsupported assumption that only physical things can collide. Why can't two immaterial things bump? They can.

[Girzo]

@zoey101 That wouldn't suffice. Ego and thoughts are not needed for anything in that situation. They didn't thought themselves into existence, so they are not that powerful to explain anything. it's more like everything is already made of consciousness and therefore consciouss to some degree, so you don't need any ego to notice a rock for example, it can be by itself.

[zoey101]

29 minutes ago, Girzo said:

@zoey101 That wouldn't suffice. Ego and thoughts are not needed for anything in that situation. They didn't thought themselves into existence, so they are not that powerful to explain anything. it's more like everything is already made of consciousness and therefore consciouss to some degree, so you don't need any ego to notice a rock for example, it can be by itself.

I get that.

I was just trying to explain specifically to his question lol but I might have made no sense, sorry!

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, Steph30 said:

Hi all

Leo and self actualization community tend to say that reality is not physical and this world is not real and it's our mind that creates the experience and tricks us into thinking that physical world is real world.

This insight helps me a lot with depression and anxiety but I have a question.

How it is only our mind that creates the reality if things that we have no knowledge of works for us?

for example why a medication works in someone who is unconscious in hospital?

Or how we bump into material things in a dark place that we never been in there before? Our mind didn't know that thing was there so how we bump into it if it's only mind that creates the reality and physical things actually do not exist?

That’s what you are saying, you just think it’s others. You think there is a mind, which ‘you’ ‘have’. Without the filter of thinking, the answers to these questions are obvious to the degree the questions just disappear. 

Consciousness work!!!!!

Not problem solving.

[Faceless]

To tell someone mind is real or unreal is meaningless. It is actual in the sense that it’s experienced to them and it is an actual process taking place. It may be correct or incorrect but it is still actual. 

 So one must go into mind/thought. That is conscious work. Then once you understand its nature, structure, processes then you have a basis to observe ”consious work”..Otherwise one will remain caught in the matrix yet attributing certain thoughts as being independent of the matrix. Classic deception/illusion. 

Until one sees ”actually” for themselves the unreal will remain real to them. This realization in the form of an idea won't help anyone see. They have to see it in themselves as a fact. This is why not gathering theories, conceptualizations is important. 

To say you are nothing to one who is not no-thing, ”empty of the conditioned consciousness” is an abstraction to them. If one's mind is not free then they are not nothingness. Until consciousness is empty it's all theory, non fact. Part of the matrix. 

But If one disregards all the conditioned content that has been accumulated from the stream of thought ’past knowledge’ and sticks with the fact of ones own conditioned inward content, then one will avoid all the illusion and deception. 

The point is to empty the mind not fill it. Only an empty mind ”consciousness empty of it's conditioned movement/content” can see what is. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Faceless