Why highly gifted people are bad at math...

[Lelouch]

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Question: ''I am gifted but still suck at math, is this normal?''

Yes. What a lot of gifted people don't understand is that math is hard, even if you are gifted. Usually, the following is happening or has happened: You, the gifted individual, can easily and intuitively understand most fields at your particular educational institute. Because of this, you start to notice that you are fairly intelligent and able to easily grasp concepts. 

 

However, when it comes to grasping abstract mathematical concepts it is not as easy as the other fields.  Thus, after a while, you conclude that you must be bad at math, or have a weakness in math. And sometimes it even happens that people blatantly conclude that they have a math deficiency. 

 

Skipping forward, these people consciously avoid intellectual fields of study that require mathematics. In essence, they limit their potential and the pool of opportunities for their future. This is pure laziness and entitlement, it stems from the idea that you have noticed that you are intelligent, and thus, able to learn almost anything without much effort. 

 

Therefore, you expect that mathematics should go the same way as with the other fields. This is pure delusion. First of all, math is hard, period. Secondly, you don't learn math; you fight it. The bottom line is that most gifted individuals never really worked hard at anything so they are not used to it. Consequently, they develop a fixed mindset instead of a growth mindset:

• It is genetics.
• IQ is fixed.
• Genetics over hard work. 
• I have a math deficiency (dyscalculia).
• It is my ADHD. 

9 out of 10 times it is not these things that are holding you back, but simply your unwillingness to put in the effort. Trust me! I speak from experience! For instance, I've seen gifted individuals claim they have dyscalculia... While in reality, they are just bad at math because they have never taken it seriously. Dyscalculia is literally not understanding whether 9 or 7 is a bigger number. It is that severe! See, what I am saying? Being bad at math and having dyscalculia are two entirely different things!

● ● ●

I thought I should share this so that people may get new insights, especially younger people that are highly gifted. Another important thing to point out is that learning math also puts a lot of emphasis on logical sequences which is the antithesis of intuition. Don't get me wrong, math also uses intuition, especially when trying to grasp the essence of an abstract concept.

However, more often than not when you are learning math it takes a while for your powerful intuition to develop; that you usually use to understand almost anything very quickly. This is a question I answered a while ago. Let me know if you guys recognize yourself into this!  

Edited May 4, 2018 by Lelouch

[egoless]

I just never had great interest in maths. It did not entertain my mind. I hate rules and structured subjects. However I was still fairly good at it. 

[Lelouch]

@egoless Same. Until I started to really dive deep into it. I discovered that my teachers just weren't very great teachers, they couldn't make students excited about their respective field teaching. My problem is mostly with high-school math, which is boring. Meanwhile, I enjoy the highly abstract mathematics like calculus, linear algebra, and set theory.  But, I get you, then this post wasn't for you since you have no inclination towards the field. However, it still is something I see many exceptionally gifted people complain about and thought I should address it. 

Cheers !

[egoless]

2 hours ago, Lelouch said:

@egoless Same. Until I started to really dive deep into it. I discovered that my teachers just weren't very great teachers, they couldn't make students excited about their respective field teaching. My problem is mostly with high-school math, which is boring. Meanwhile, I enjoy the highly abstract mathematics like calculus, linear algebra, and set theory.  But, I get you, then this post wasn't for you since you have no inclination towards the field. However, it still is something I see many exceptionally gifted people complain about and thought I should address it. 

Cheers !

It's definitely a good insight you made. Math is not understandable with only just gift compared to other more subtle fields. Math requires mastery mindset. Everything requires but degree is comparable.

[Lelouch]

@egoless Exactly, well said!

[pluto]

1 + 1 = 3

[Lelouch]

@pluto That is arithmetic not math, I myself suck at arithmetic  But, nevertheless arithmetic is part of mathematics! 

[Guest Quanty]

Who told you that? Is quite the opposite. An awakened human being will totally destroy in IQ and any field the un-awakened, even in physical strength. 

[Lelouch]

@Quanty Well, I suppose I am the one who told [me] that. I told myself this based on my observation of highly gifted individuals like my friends, and the people from the uni I am attending, and the research I did on the topic. I am not sure what you mean by ''destroy in IQ'', thus you have to clarify  Also, please clarify the term 'awakened human being' I am not sure what that means either. 

All I am saying is that mathematics requires hard work, and that gifted individuals— especially young ones—  are not used to hard work because they understand most things quite fast and without much conscious effort, thus they think that it has to do with genetics, talent, nature, IQ, ADHD, math deficiency so forth and so on.  

I do think that I know what you are talking about when you mean 'physical strength'! It is true that when people are in a life or death situation that because of certain chemicals that result in flow-state, adrenaline, endorphin rush, and so on, are capable of exerting more physical strength than usual. Example, lifting up a big chunk of a collapsed building to save someone! 

Cheers!

Edited May 6, 2018 by Lelouch

[Martin123]

@Lelouch I like your name, I literally started watching it quite recently.

[pluto]

@Lelouch What i mean is as an examples..

Man + Woman = Baby

1 + 1 = 3

or

A + B = C

Edited May 9, 2018 by pluto

[lmfao]

@Lelouch Everyone has their own natural strengths and weaknesses when it comes to, what I'd call, "their ability to abstract" [ which is their ability to learn, think creatively and use logic]. Some people will be naturally better at English and some people will be naturally better at Maths. However Maths is a subject where if you're not doing well you have to face that fact abruptly. The frustration that comes from you getting an incorrect value for "x" from an equation is high because you can often see where exactly you went wrong, but when your writing skills are slightly poor you don't experience the same level of annoyance. I'm about to talk about some of things I hate about the current way maths is taught at school, although this isn't wholly related to why people struggle at it. 

As a child I was quite good at maths and I liked it a lot. I'm in my last year of high school now and have been doing calculus for almost 2 years now. At high school the teachers, and the textbooks to a lesser degree, tell you certain formulas to mindlessly learn and regurgitate to pass national exams. Teachers don't tell you why a particular formula/method is true, they just show it to you and expect you to use it despite the fact you have no understanding of why it's true. I find this to be highly annoying, and it kills the spirit of maths for me. When I learn something, I want to know why it is true from first principles. 

If you're familiar with calculus, then you know that limits lie at the foundation of this area of study. An understanding of what exactly limits are and how they are defined is necessary if you want to understand how to calculate derivatives. Despite this, very little is taught at school about the nature of limits, and so you are expected to learn how to use particular formula without understanding why the formula is true. For example, to understand the chain rule you have to know why the product rule for limits is true. It is for this reason I'll read about the epsilon delta definition of limits out of interest, so I understand how and why I can manipulate derivatives from a fundamental level, and it's made understanding calculus so much better. Whilst the epsilon delta definition for limits is probably something which is too conceptually difficult for high school students to fully grasp and use, it should still be shown to students so that they can develop a genuine intuition for where things come from.  I know a few people who probably have a natural ability equal to or greater than mine in maths, yet they'll struggle because of the way maths is taught. 

I think part of the reason people struggle with maths is twofold. First of all, most people don't want to think about how to solve equations from first principles. And second of all, understanding things from first principles is difficult. It doesn't help that most teachers are sloppy when it comes to explaining things through first principles. People are often not interested in even learning maths at a fundamental level, all they want is a high grade for exams. Most people who took maths optionally at my school don't even like it that much. There isn't a simple relationship between your understanding of maths from first principles and your performance on exams. 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by lmfao

[Ether]

"What about math, how come I wasn't ever good at that?"

[Lelouch]

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Are you aiming to be a polymath? Regurgitating information you've found from documentaries aren't even close to being expert in general. First of all learn about science, the scientific method and become adapt at using pubmed.gov, library genesis gen.lib.rus.ec, sci-hub sci-hub.hk. Before you speak. Think about this: do I have a source to a scientific study to link? Or a textbook which I've read to cite?

On pubmed.gov you can search for anything, like "flight or fight response", then you can get the entire paper from sci-hub, and you can get textbooks from library genesis.

Either you're L or you're not. Either you're pro or you're not.

 

@Outer I am not sure what got you so passive aggressive, there are quite some studies on the topic of flow-state and how the brain functions on it... Google 'Hypofrontality'. I am already familiar with Gwern, it is a great resource to learn! I am also familiar with the services you talk about, I even wrote a post with 92 studies from these sources: http://qr.ae/TUTAxt Personally, I like ScienceDirect  the best it seems more organized to me!

I never said that what I said, is science or fact, it is just conjecture and speculation, so don't put words into my mouth. I literally said ''I think.'' Which indicates I am not certain about things. Our greatest insights are based on speculation and asking the ''what if'' question!

I am willing to say I am wrong if I get new information. However, I am pretty sure that flow state is legit: http://www.thebioneer.com/neuroscience-of-flow-states/

Also, you are making it seem like that collecting information from your own long-term memory bank is something bad! Honestly man ... stop assuming things about people you don't know...

Edited May 11, 2018 by Lelouch
Added some extra reasoning.

[Lelouch]

@Outer I am quite familiar with the big 5 which is the most scientific model of personality traits and its relationship with intelligence.  However, please understand that the correlation between personality traits and intelligence is not scientific fact or has been proven to be fact.

For instance, the only trait that correlates with intelligence from the big 5 is 'openness to experience' with a r2.0 and often lower, which is statistically insignificant. IQ will always be the best predictor of ... you guessed it intelligence.  Also, I am aware of all the traits of high IQ individuals, I even wrote a big post about it (again keep in mind this is just observation and speculation not fact):  http://qr.ae/TUTASx

If you change your attitude towards me I am willing to have a fruitful conversation on the topic— I am certain you have good intentions! I am not going to keep talking to you with the assumption that you are the one who is going to teach me, and that I am the one who needs to shut up and listen. I enjoy intellectual conversations where both individuals are on the same ''wavelength''.  If you wan't I can also send you all the studies for my claims about the brain and flow-state.

Here are some of my favorites studies on this topic:

• http://hiqnews.megafoundation.org/Terman_Summary.htm
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289617301551?via%3Dihub
• http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/multiple-intelligences-emotional-intelligence-creativity-and-g/
• http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/47403
• http://stephanietolan.com/nonfiction.htm
• http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/gifted_101.htm
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289607000219
• http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.0963-7214.2004.01301001.x
• https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/66356/
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289606000171
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289617300818#bb0465
• http://www.eoht.info/page/Genius+IQs
• https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(12)00584-3?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627312005843%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289616303324
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289615001269
• https://www.vox.com/2016/5/24/11723182/iq-test-intelligence
• http://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf
• http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.nl/2006/06/blessings-and-burdens-of-high-iq.html
• http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.nl/2009/05/different-brain-networks-for-novelty.html
• http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.nl/search?q=attention+

Edited May 11, 2018 by Lelouch
Added some extra sources to support my claims.

[Lelouch]

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Flow states are not hypofrontality, 

@Outer I didn't say flow-state is hypofrontality, I meant that hypofrontality is a part of the flow state. Or at least a characteristic. Here you go: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165178106000199    

Well, English is not my first language. . . 

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 I gave some constructive advice. [...]Because you don't know what you're talking about. You're typing like you're 15 years old know-it-all. 

Where exactly is the advice? Perhaps you need some constructive advice on how to give constructive advice   You do know what you are talking about, I won't say you are wrong. However, you don't know how to actually give advice; giving advice is a skill inner of itself. 

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maybe that's why you're attached to the story of being intelligent. The L avatar and Lelouch gave it away too... 

Not really, I just love anime, every anime fan knows that Death Note and Code Geass are among classics!

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I think you are being inaccurate because your memory bank isn't filled with sources that has citations that you're aware of. If you recall something from memory and I ask for a source you might back track it and find it. 

I never said that this is the case— only Kim Peek could do such a mental feat! I just meant that using your long-term memory is a normal brain function that every human has. However, I do know where to find every citation of the claims I make, despite me not literally remembering the exact citation, I do have documents with the links.

But, I admit I enjoy speculation more than reading papers all day. And I do make sure to let others know when I am speculating and when I am claiming fact, by using phrases like ''I am not sure but..." and ''I think''.

Furthermore, I am not obligated to give you any sources— although I did— I wasn't even talking to you, but to someone who was talking about getting super powers that allow you to destroy IQ tests when you get enlightened. Of course, it is good practice to share sources on the claims one makes, but there is only so much time in a day, I was just stopping by for a chat, wasn't planning on writing in-depth about these topics  

One more thing ... have you considered that you might be projecting your own insecurities a little bit on me... just a little bit. I would like to invite the both of us to inquire about why this conversation hasn't gone as smooth as it could be.

In any case, thanks for stopping by :D 

[Lelouch]

 

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Because you don't know what you're talking about. You're typing like you're 15 years old know-it-all. 

@OuterBetween, it is 'aggressive' not 'agressive' , you are welcome

[Lelouch]

@John Lula I am actually a fan of Jordan Peterson myself... I never said that IQ research isn't valid or else I wouldn't have sent dozens of links to those studies. My post is about high IQ individuals which I refer with the term ''Gifted'' as to avoid arguments whether IQ is valid or not. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Lelouch

[lmfao]

[Lelouch]

@John Lula Oh really? Seems I misunderstood you. Yeah, you are correct, I have noticed the wannabe  behaviour