Are animals enlightened?

[Guillem]

If they are then they should be able to be happy under any circumstance wich they arent, and if they are not why is it? They dont have an ego or a view of reality determinated by society

Hope to hear intereating thoughts about this topic

[Alex90]

Great question! I do not know. But would also like to hear some thoughts.

But why do you think that enlightenment equals happiness?  Enlightenment is the end of suffering - not eternal happiness 

Happiness is a state and Nothingness is the stateless-state 

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Alex90

[moon777light]

they cant meditate

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, Guillem said:

If they are then they should be able to be happy under any circumstance wich they arent, and if they are not why is it? They dont have an ego or a view of reality determinated by society

Hope to hear intereating thoughts about this topic

When you watch a good show, you feel the characters' suffering, and yet - this is precisely why you enjoy the show.
Enlightenment in this context is to see that you are both the character and the spectator.
That you enjoy your life precisely because you suffer. That suffering is irresistible to watch.
Irresistibility is the hallmark of a great performance. The greatest performance is reality.
It is so real, that you cannot help, but watch when the right time comes.

When it comes to your question about animals:
What is the difference between your suffering when you watch them, and them suffering?
Before you read this sentence, did suffering of aliens concern you?

Everything is as enlightened as you are, because you are everything.
Are you perhaps questioning your own enlightenment here?
 

[Malelekakis]

1 hour ago, Guillem said:

If they are then they should be able to be happy under any circumstance wich they arent, and if they are not why is it? They dont have an ego or a view of reality determinated by society

Hope to hear intereating thoughts about this topic

There are animals who have attachments, like a lot  of mammals so they probably have some sense of duality.but I haven't seen an animal suffering and creating suffering to its fellow animals in the extent that humans do. Ego as a mechanism  plays an important role in this.i like how aristotle put it:humans can be the most catastrophic creatures in nature because they have weapons(mind) that when not controlled properly can lead to extremes. Have you seen an animal in nature being so hedonistic about sex and food? 

[Torkys]

You can observe resistance and ego in the behavior of animals. That is what's driving them to survive. And if an owl knew what that little squirrel is going through he would rather die

[RichardY]

@Guillem Are you an animal....?

[cetus]

@Guillem You can easily see at least one aspect of animals that is close to what is considered to be enlightenment. Animals live totally in the moment of now. The concept of past or future, birth and death has no bearing over them in their experience reality. They take every moment as it comes with no personal judgement. So it would be fair to say from that observation alone animals are far more "enlightened" than most humans.

[Solace]

They are like human babies; fully enlightened, but without consciously knowing it imo. Animals are a great example of balance/neutrality.

[Phocus]

“I have lived with many Zen masters - all of them, cats” -Eckhart Tolle

[molosku]

Ultimately, we can only guess.

 

9 hours ago, Solace said:

They are like human babies; fully enlightened, but without consciously knowing it imo. Animals are a great example of balance/neutrality.

 

It's not nearly as self evident as it might seem. Heres some questions to think about:

8 hours ago, Phocus said:

“I have lived with many Zen masters - all of them, cats” -Eckhart Tolle

Eckhart also talks about how only animals that live close to humans, can show signs of "human" emotions, such as shame or guilt. Ever seen those funny videos where dogs "deny" they made a mess or are ashamed by it? Can a truly enlightened being be overwhelmed by shame?

Animals must have a primitive ego to tell what parts of their sense perceptions are essential to that organisms survival and what are not. All animals protect themselves against death, that is their natural instinct, but that does not mean that they have any "idea" why. Enlightenment tells you that life and death are mere illusions and appearances, but that does not mean that enlightened people (or beings) off themselves right after realization because they have nothing to defend anymore, it just that death does not matter.

Elephants are intelligent and they seem to recognize their dead relatives, monkeys mourn their dead relatives too, even whales show signs of this. But does that still tell anything about the actual understanding of death, and what would that even mean? We cant know. 

Self defense COULD mean that animals deeply associate their being to the sense perceptions of "their" bodies, and thus there would be "me, a tortoise, apart from the world" and thusly they would not be enlightened, but it might just as well not mean that.

But what is association? Can animals "associate"? What does that even mean? How an animal would self reflect and associate itself? Is a "mind" necessary? Is mind something that all beings have? Does it depend on the species? Too many open questions.

---

Only reason I personally know that anyone except me can self reflect, is because we have this mindblowing thing called language. We can talk about self reflection, and we can talk about (our)selves. Does self reflection even make sense as a concept, if you cannot verbally communicate it to your "self" or others? Is self-reflection just built in language, or is it something deeper than that? Is self reflection in language just a human way to do it?

Every question about "are animals enlightened" always circles back to the age old question "how does it feel like to be a spider". We do not, and cannot know.

 

9 hours ago, cetus56 said:

@GuillemThe concept of past or future, birth and death has no bearing over them in their experience reality. They take every moment as it comes with no personal judgement. So it would be fair to say from that observation alone animals are far more "enlightened" than most humans.

I agree. As guesses go, "animals are far MORE "enlightened" than most humans" feels like a good one.

But cats? Hell yeah they are fully enlightened, just look at them in the eyes  

My pet belief about this ? (pun fully intended)

All animals have a deep feeling of "I am".

 

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by molosku

[Space]

17 hours ago, Guillem said:

If they are then they should be able to be happy under any circumstance wich they arent, and if they are not why is it? They dont have an ego or a view of reality determinated by society

Hope to hear intereating thoughts about this topic

Firstly, it's a tricky question because enlightenment is not just a black and white thing. It's very complex and multifaceted. So in that respect it's difficult to come to a clear answer. By what criteria is an animal or person enlightened? Is it simply a lack of ego? Or is there much more that is required?

It also depends on the animal. A lone wolf or bear probably has much stronger sense of self than an ant which is part of a huge colony. 

Don't assume that animals don't have an ego. They may very well have an ego, but it's likely not anywhere near as highly developed as the human ego, purely from the fact that their brains are not nearly as large or complex. They still exhibit many self-survival and egoic behaviours which you could argue suggests that some form of ego is present. 

But even if it is only humans who have developed an ego, would a lack of ego in an animal make it 'enlightened'? I don't really know. My guess is no. Are animals directly conscious of what they truly are? Do they walk around in a permanent state of non-dual awareness? Are they even capable of being conscious of whats True?

Edited May 4, 2018 by Space

[Prabhaker]

@Guillem

Even animals, if they are receptive can grow in consciousness, and cows are very receptive. That's why in India they have become sacred.

There was a great Master, Ramana Maharshi, each morning when he would sit for the darshan for one hour and people would come to sit with him, a cow would also come. The cow was so regular that no other disciple was so regular . It might rain, it might be summer, it might be winter. The cow might be ill, or healthy, whatsoever, but the cow was bound to come at the exact time.

She would come and stand in the verandah and look inside through the window, her head inside the window, and remain there for one hour, sometimes with open eyes and sometimes with closed eyes. And sometimes tears flowing, it has become a miracle!

When she was dying. And when Ramana reached, she closed her eyes and tears started flowing. She died.

Somebody asked Ramana, "Is this cow going to be born as a man?"

Ramana said, "No. She will not need to be born as a man -- she has passed beyond that. She is not going to be born at all. She has attained enlightenment."

It was for no other reason than this that cows became an essential part of all the ashrams in India in the old days. They created a certain atmosphere, of purity, innocence.

https://sriramanamaharishi.com/animals-birds/ramana-maharshi-and-cow-lakshmi/

Edited May 4, 2018 by Prabhaker
link inserted

[Guest Quanty]

No. They are just like human babies, an enlightened Seed waiting to grow. 

[John Iverson]

If you see a butterfly ? you can see them as being.. that is what they are.. every animal is a being.. just be ,the problem with your question, you still have duality... you and the animal.. "YOU" and "that possible to be enlightened" and them.. but how, you know? You and animal is one... HAHAHAHA! You are already enlightened, and you and animal is one .. you and the animal is the same.. 

[Viking]

@Guillem it depends on what you define enlightenment as. if you define enlightenment as the absence of ego animals are definitely not enlightened.  they want to survive.

I also think that the terms "enlightenment" or "awakening" imply to be in ignorance or asleep before a certain happening. if animals were "enlightened" they would definitely be enlightened since birth, so those terms have little meaning.

dont confuse enlightenment with being in the present moment. animals are probably always in the present because they probably dont have much the ability to plan (depends what animal) or reflect on the past. they probably dont suffer, because suffering comes from the future or past. they might have pain or sadness, as an enlightened person might have, but they wont suffer for it, also as an enlightened person, but that doesnt mean theyre enlightened.

[tecladocasio]

Animals are not enlightened i think , simply beacause they don't know there true nature , they have a sense of survival , all unconcious , that's why animals can't do enlightment work , they would just be condicioned in another state ( like peeing in the journal ) . Humans can be enlightment cause of their ability to be self-aware , reflect upon their own behaviours ,  know that we know , allowing us to go deep in our experience beyond our condicioning . My thoughts about that ... @Guillem   

[thetrut11]

The same observer that its present in humans is present in animal, because the Observer is just one and only one.

[pluto]

@Solace @Quanty Excellent Answers

[Vingger]

yes