Meditation & Brain Fog (?)

[iTommy]

Hey guys. I've been meditating for a while and it has helped me greatly in many ways, but... I can't help but notice that it may increase the chances of me getting "brain-fog".  Honestly I am not sure if "brain-fog" would be the right word. Let's use it as in "becoming present", for now. This doesn't sound too bad, right?

 

With "becoming present" I mean going/shifting your awareness from the thinking mind, to simply whatever else is occuring in the present moment. This I find happens often when I am talking to people. I don't really seem to be focused on/following the conversations, but rather I just stop for a moment. I watch my breathing, I notice the different bodily sensations and so on. That's when I sometimes just lose track of what I wanted to say, and even what the conversation was about. On one hand it's nice to "become present" and just noticing without mindly interpretations and judgments. But then when this happens during conversations, it's rather bothersome since I then often lose track of it all. I switch the attention/focus from the conversation, and towards noticing what is, then back onto the conversation, then towards noticing what is... and so on.

 

Thoughts? Any ideas on how to proceed from here?

 

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by iTommy

[deci belle]

hi iTommy~

Perhaps you might be falling into the space occurring due to the conversation being nowhere to begin with and you are actually recognizing the real potential constituting the situational energy due to your meditation practice. It may be the conversation constitutes fog in terms of the psychological momentum you are seeing for what it really is?

I like that you are also (deliberately?) shifting between the ratio-synchretic/psychological and the immediate non-discursive knowledge of your innate non-psychological capacity. Very good~ [as long as you shouldn't be in one OR the other].

Are these conversations valid?

I would continue this exploration while perhaps using more subtle (impersonal) circumstances to practice this shifting between modes.

Nice observation!

 

 

ed note: add "…in terms of the psychological momentum you are seeing for what it really is" in first paragraph

Edited April 29, 2018 by deci belle

[tsuki]

19 hours ago, iTommy said:

Thoughts? Any ideas on how to proceed from here?

Try not letting this 'brain fog'/'empty head' stop you from talking and doing your things.
Try noticing it and carrying on like nothing happened.

This is how meditative state announces itself out of meditation sessions.
This is effortless meditation.
It does not interrupt you from doing stuff.
You interrupt yourself when you notice it.
Notice it, but keep going so it can 'stick'.

Edited April 29, 2018 by tsuki

[deci belle]

Quote

You interrupt yourself when you notice it.
Notice it, but keep going so it can 'stick'.

ooh, I like that, tsuki!

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, deci belle said:

ooh, I like that, tsuki!

@deci belleThank you. Your praise seems important to me.

Why do you like what I suggested?
I'm working through it and it may be helpful to me (just so that I don't sound like a creep after the first sentence ).

Edited April 29, 2018 by tsuki

[deci belle]

Well, it's just that being in a fresher "stage" actively involving formal meditation might very well be allowing you insight into the experience that iTommy is describing. I say that because, having never practiced formal "just sitting", I don't have the experiential base that rote meditation provides in terms of its accelerated influence on one's transforming psychological patterns as they give sway to the power of authentically derived "stopping and seeing."

My experience has been a much more gradual roundabout circumnavigation, if you will, over the course of decades. Sitting meditation was never part of the gradual process. The experiences I have gone through such as shamanic "dreaming states", kundalini, countless samadhi experiences, internal energy-shifts (organ-based) including seismic brain phenomena have invariably happened spontaneously inside and outside my body without me knowing what was going on. Whenever these things happen, I just have the frame of reference allowing that it's not happening to me~ it IS me. So I don't get freaked out, and the effect is internalized without psychological or emotional trauma. That's because it's not the person. I'm not the person.

What this means is that me doesn't get "hung up" on these events, so there is no undue significance attributable to the totality of the being that is going to die. It's about the nature of perception; it's selflessness is one's true identity. Therefore, it's best not ot allow any intellectualism to taint the experience presently or in its aftermath which preserves the perpetual essential clarity of enlightening being. It's not the person.

It's like you said:

Quote

You interrupt yourself when you (don't) notice (you noticing) it.
Notice it, but keep (it) going so it can 'stick'.

This is also a very keen insight. When one avoids the break in the course of events one is observing as iTommy describes, to keep going, just as you said, this is itself stealing potential in the sense of spiritual alchemy. It is where one does not go along with creation. It is very subtle. This is the nature of entry into the inconceivable.

It is being aware of not-thinking in the midst of ordinary affairs. This is what I refer to as seeing. Seeing is itself the instance of "stealing potential". This is itself the arising of the celestial in the midst of ordinary affairs. It cannot be manufactured. It is the result of ongoing self-refinement. I repeat: it cannot be manufactured.

Mind to mind transmission does not involve another mind. The fog is a preliminary experience before break-through.

Formal meditation practice is very powerful, especially when carried out correctly under the proper frame of mind. People don't realize the power of the potential that is being released in terms of facilitating the initial stages of the opening of the golden flower of enlightening potential when beginning and sustaining authentic insight practice. Even if these things aren't violently apparent, no one knows. I never knew, and I still don't. It's all very hmmm.

The resulting effects of clarifying the basis can be surprising or worse to those whose initial shallow entry into inconceivability is lacking in fundamental psychological foundations suited to handling the breaking down of the calcification of the patterns of the personal identity. Traditionally, in buddhist mind-training regimens, candidates went through years of rote academic study into the teachings and traditions adapted to levels of insight deemed appropriate before being allowed to partake of supervised meditation practice.

There are countless examples of spiritual malpractice carried out by half-baked "spin-off" traditions— students should be very wary of trusting "teachers", who are very often little more than "baby-sitters", prescribers of mere techniques, or wretched souls disposed to psychic vampirism. Who ever comes across authentic, completely and perfectly illumined enlightening beings? Of the prior illuminates whom traditions uphold, countless others are those who were not disposed to formal teaching— neither their time nor predilection, so no one knows of the examples their lives exhibited in terms of their expression of inconceivable wonder from within virtuous receptivity.

As for myself, I never had anyone to ask or tell. Perhaps I have the good fortune to be observing "wizardry" according to its intrinsic natural process without rushing or lagging. Who knows what's happening, but there is always a single-mindedness awaiting the recognition of the spontaneous arising of the celestial.

 

 

ed note: fiddled a little with the middle…

Edited April 30, 2018 by deci belle

[tsuki]

@deci belle I think that I'm starting to see the link between our understanding of reality.

12 hours ago, deci belle said:

What this means is that me doesn't get "hung up" on these events, so there is no undue significance attributable to the totality of the being that is going to die. It's about the nature of perception; it's selflessness is one's true identity. Therefore, it's best not ot allow any intellectualism to taint the experience presently or in its aftermath which preserves the perpetual essential clarity of enlightening being. It's not the person.

This selflessness is a very subtle word you use. It is linked to my understanding of this topic by inattention. 
Inattention is the always-present ability to discard one's incarnate answers to life. By incarnate answers I do not mean the wording of the result of asking 'Who am I?' as in 'I am tsuki'.
Asking the question 'Who am I?' is an incarnate answer itself by stating that 'I am the-thing-that-does-not-know-what-it-is'.
Any other answer to it is only possible by inattentive abandonment of the puzzlement of asking.
I understand selflessness as direct experience, seeing (in your sense), of the interplay of attention and inattention in everyday, ordinary events.
We are as much what we forget, as we are what we remember. Can you see what I mean?

12 hours ago, deci belle said:

This is also a very keen insight. When one avoids the break in the course of events one is observing as iTommy describes, to keep going, just as you said, this is itself stealing potential in the sense of spiritual alchemy. It is where one does not go along with creation. It is very subtle. This is the nature of entry into the inconceivable.

It is being aware of not-thinking in the midst of ordinary affairs. This is what I refer to as seeing. Seeing is itself the instance of "stealing potential". This is itself the arising of the celestial in the midst of ordinary affairs. It cannot be manufactured. It is the result of ongoing self-refinement. I repeat: it cannot be manufactured.

I'm having difficulty seeing how one does not go along with creation when he simply 'keeps going'.
Is stealing potential related to the ability to avert attention from the possibility of inattention?
By not ceasing movement, not allowing 'breaks', when the opportunity presents itself?
Not going along with creation of cessation in iTommy's case?

How does that relate to stealing, potential, and energy?
I can see how effort ceases when one is selfless.
Is stealing potential by not going with creation the source of energy to fuel effortlessness?
Do you effortlessly steal potential to gain energy that ceases effort?

12 hours ago, deci belle said:

Mind to mind transmission does not involve another mind. The fog is a preliminary experience before break-through.

I can see that. Great that we meet in this understanding. This is exciting!

12 hours ago, deci belle said:

Formal meditation practice is very powerful, especially when carried out correctly under the proper frame of mind. People don't realize the power of the potential that is being released in terms of facilitating the initial stages of the opening of the golden flower of enlightening potential when beginning and sustaining authentic insight practice. Even if these things aren't violently apparent, no one knows. I never knew, and I still don't. It's all very hmmm.

Meditation in my understanding is a repeated exposure to selflessness.
When one applies effort to empty one's mind, one misses the fact that the reason for application of effort appeared effortlessly.
I like refer to this as: self-awareness is not self-aware. There are many different forms of this self-reference that express this.

Can you expand the notion of golden flower of enlightning more? Is this a poetic description of this magic? Inconceivability?

12 hours ago, deci belle said:

The resulting effects of clarifying the basis can be surprising or worse to those whose initial shallow entry into inconceivability is lacking in fundamental psychological foundations suited to handling the breaking down of the calcification of the patterns of the personal identity. Traditionally, in buddhist mind-training regimens, candidates went through years of rote academic study into the teachings and traditions adapted to levels of insight deemed appropriate before being allowed to partake of supervised meditation practice.

There are countless examples of spiritual malpractice carried out by half-baked "spin-off" traditions— students should be very wary of trusting "teachers", who are very often little more than "baby-sitters", prescribers of mere techniques, or wretched souls disposed to psychic vampirism. Who ever comes across authentic, completely and perfectly illumined enlightening beings? Of the prior illuminates whom traditions uphold, countless others are those who were not disposed to formal teaching— neither their time nor predilection, so no one knows of the examples their lives exhibited in terms of their expression of inconceivable wonder from within virtuous receptivity.

An attempt to mass-produce enlightened beings is a very dangerous endeavor. It is much more advisable to work on our own enlightenment and see the world flower by itself.

Are you also aware of the balance between the 'inner' and the 'outer'? That the inner is in fact the outer?
That instead of changing the world, one can change himself and watch the world change on its own?
That learning this balance is fundamental? Does this have any significance in your spiritual practice?

12 hours ago, deci belle said:

As for myself, I never had anyone to ask or tell. Perhaps I have the good fortune to be observing "wizardry" according to its intrinsic natural process without rushing or lagging. Who knows what's happening, but there is always a single-mindedness awaiting the recognition of the spontaneous arising of the celestial.

The part about "I'm not the person" resonated with me deeply. It may be the cause of my repeated exposure to self-referential nature of thought that revealed inattention and its interplay to create selflessness. You may underplay the importance of suffering in all of this, but it's understandable.

Thank you for your response. I have learned a lot.

Edited April 30, 2018 by tsuki

[deci belle]

oh dear!! an articulate one!!

Right off the bat I want to get straight into the break.

It's the critical juncture where potential is up for grabs, where one "takes over creation and steals potential", where one "grabs the cubic centimeter of chance", where one "doesn't miss a beat." That last popular euphemism perfectly illustrates the buddhist saying "saving energy is gaining energy", where one just passes through and gains everything and is gone (relative to that situation); that is, the situation is rendered a non-thing by virtue of its potential being swept up in one fell swoop and no one has a chance of re-couping anything. Who made off with it? The point is, that karmic situation was utterly sucked of its potential. Now you see the timing and the actuality of not going along with creation~ actually, it could be said of this instance that one has left creation holding an empty bag. And that is exactly how it is in real life. It's like a cat waiting at a mouse-hole.

This is what refining the self and awaiting the time means. It's a matter of seeing.

Bridging these critical junctures is not going along with creation because karma (creation) is based on the dual function of birth and death constituting all created cycles. The bandits always "lay low" for a time after a heist and the period of ten months described by taoist alchemy is no different. This is part of the meaning of the fourth hexagram Darkness. This is the time of sealing the potential in utter secrecy void of intellectualism. In terms of "gathering" potential, this is the time of preserving the fundamental.

ok-- now i will see about tsukis' comments…

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I understand selflessness as direct experience, seeing (in your sense), of the interplay of attention and inattention in everyday, ordinary events.

This cannot be divorced from "passing through". It's all one; all-at-once. That's how the energy is reverted to its essence (potential). In the dynamic sense, the situation is rendered a non-thing by virtue of its potential being swept up in, as you say, the interplay of attention and inattention.

I must somehow stress that it is not a matter of energy relative to the self in terms of spontaneous attention/inattention. One's mastery of suspending circumstantial momentum at the instant of recognizing potential goes unnoticed; so no one noticing (it's not an issue of anyone else knowing [or not]), is what constitutes not missing a beat. "No one noticing" is non-psychological awareness of seamless attention-inattention. The person getting hung-up on the juncture (or not) is not about the person; not relative to the person. "I am not the person" is no one noticing. This is not getting hung-up. Seeing is "passing through". This is "endless transformations, planting lotuses in fire, entering the tao in reality."

There is a counterpart to this in terms of the sudden in that there is passing through, and there is "passing through passing through." In terms of reversal, vitality>energy>spirit>openness>emptying openness. In terms of buddhism, seeing essence (absolute) is "dropping off (the skin-bag)" one then drops off dropping off. In terms of alchemy, one uses lead to refine (balance) mercury, after which one gets rid of the lead. In terms of subtle observation, one uses concentration to arrive at insight; one then stops at sufficiency, otherwise one damages insight by concentration.

One must go far enough without going too far— "The Cramps" song-title is How Far Can Too Far Go? You just know… in terms of subtle spiritual mutual response, one holds firmly and then lets go at the right instant. All these references point to the same thing: the timing is not up to people; when the time is right, one withdraws potential. When the potential is refined, it is released.

It's a matter of recognizing the point of illumination— there is no social connotation relative to the situation because seeing strips energy of its karmic gravity. Reverting energy to its potential is freeing energy from the matrix of creation.

The point (of spiritual alchemy) is simply practicing not going along with creation~ that's all it is. It's using situations to refine the self, as opposed to using situations to gratify the self (become karmically indebted). It's working with what is the same in that one uses seeing (selfless non-pychological awareness) to absorb unrefined potential (essence). The period of "ten months incubation in the empty vessel void of intellectualism" is the natural process whereby that potential is refined into its essence in the aftermath of its absorption. No one knows why or how~ it's just the way it is. Those who have the potential (to realize this) are said to partake of the Virtue of Receptivity.

There are those who would say "so what", and my response is that there is no reason other than ordinary people go along with the light of creation's cycles of birth and death whereas enlightening beings turn the light around and point it at its source. This is the meaning of Reversal. This perspective is made possible first and foremost by "abandonment of the puzzlement" afforded by self-perpetuating self-reflective psychological patterns entertained by un-evolved ego-consciousness. "Abandoning the puzzlement" puts un-evolved ego-consciousness out of job number one.

And that's a good thing. It saves monumental amounts of energy for self-refinement just by not-doing it. That is, not-doing "puzzlement" is itself self-refinement's "stealing of potential" compounded moment by moment without relying on situational momentum. By virtue of "abandoning puzzlement", situational potential begins to vie for one's attention. People, the self is not a separate thing. The personality is a permanent element of the matrix of creation; there are no survivors— and that's a good thing! It's no joke that "it's not nice to fool mother nature." But mother nature will get used to the fact that enlightening being is innate, as soon as one gets used to accepting its function.

When you first start to steal potential, "mother nature" (karma) is really going to start giving you heat. That is why taoism stresses "hiding your light", and why bandits "lay low". It's what enables stealing. It's not a matter of criminal activity, its a matter of forgetting the self-reifying thinker and liver of life, and just seeing what is beyond the habitual perspective of the personality.

"Stealing potential" is no idle saying.

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I'm having difficulty seeing how one does not go along with creation when he simply 'keeps going'.
Is stealing potential related to the ability to avert attention from the possibility of inattention?
By not ceasing movement, not allowing 'breaks', when the opportunity presents itself?
Not going along with creation of cessation in iTommy's case?

How does that relate to stealing, potential, and energy?
I can see how effort ceases when one is selfless.
Is stealing potential by not going with creation the source of energy to fuel effortlessness?
Do you effortlessly steal potential to gain energy that ceases effort?

To re-cap-- the critical juncture is where one does not "keep playing the game"; one takes the money and runs— on purpose. It's cheating and karma doesn't dig it. Wizardry isn't an entitlement, it's audacity. It's not good or bad, right or wrong; it's one's human birthright: are ya feelin' lucky?

People are inconceivable beings. This isn't religion, it's working directly with the source of religion.

Stealing potential is cultivating one's non-psychological awareness to the point where one begins to see reality. Reality is neither self nor not-self: it is awareness of potential. Seeing potential is stealing it. Nothing is actually "done". Seeing reality is itself not going along with creation unbeknownst to anyone. The arising of the celestial is the time when potential is up for grabs.

In terms of taoist spiritual alchemy, the time of the arising of the celestial is the peak of yang (in terms of the "creative" growth of the situation), precisely when yin "killing" energy begins to grow. One sees this time as "knowledge of the timing of the celestial arising" and one quickly withdraws from the evolutionary arena in an active sense. It is not that one really steals anything or runs away. When yin energy begins to grow it is the growth of the killing energy of the created energy cycle. It's natural. That's the only reason it is the time to "steal" the mature unrefined yang energy potential. Otherwise it goes to waste (if you're not a wizard, that is).

Enlightening beings simply know. It's just the way it is. Like I said, ordinary people go along with the flow and adepts go in reverse. No big deal.

So seeing itself eliminates the "break" at the precise moment where the energy shifts from yang to yin. It's the Celestial Mechanism. When you steal the juncture, karma can't go on; rather (to answer the question), it goes on and you don't, like a motorcycle without its rider… eventually, it will fall over for lack of momentum as you so well put it:

Quote

"…you effortlessly steal potential to gain energy that ceases effort."

Therefore

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Meditation in my understanding is a repeated exposure to selflessness

i.e., the real. Taoism doesn't use objects, as "there is no thing"; taoism uses essence, which is reality.

This is authentic meditation: alternations of yin and yang repeating over and over and over by using situations themselves just by sharing oneself openly and taking the forward step by accepting one's enlightening function, neither courting honor nor avoiding censure. Potential is itself viably absorbed by virtue of the situation itself. The situation itself is entirely none other than real potential to those who see reality, Suchness.

There is an ancient taoist treatise that was recently (in the last few hundred years) re-transmitted and then "recently" translated under the title, The Secret of the Golden Flower." Do not waste a nano-second on the German/English version with commentary by C.G. Jung. The title translated by Thomas Cleary is the real deal: ISBN 0-06-250193-3. That the original European translation exists is a monumental boon— as there are literally thousands of such treatises in the taoist canon awaiting translation! I highly recommend the Cleary volume with commentary.

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Are you also aware of the balance between the 'inner' and the 'outer'? That the inner is in fact the outer?
That instead of changing the world, one can change himself and watch the world change on its own?
That learning this balance is fundamental? Does this have any significance in your spiritual practice?

In terms of alchemy, this relationship is termed "dual-cultivation".

"When one reverts to reality, the whole world is transformed."

There is no other practice. Balance is before change; harmony is after change. This is selfless adaption in accord with the time and situation. Seeing Change is transcending change; creation comes and goes whereas the middle way is the Supreme Vehicle of buddhas that has neither movement nor stillness: in terms of enlightenment, all (difference) is sameness hovering on the brink of Reality.

Quote

The part about "I'm not the person" resonated with me deeply. It may be the cause of my repeated exposure to self-referential nature of thought that revealed inattention and its interplay to create selflessness. You may underplay the importance of suffering in all of this, but it's understandable.

Suffering is evidence of resistance to what is. We do that. It is not to be extolled~ heehee!! But it is a rush, isn't it? woohoo!! It's actually endearing too, when I see a counterpart absolutely bewildered in the course of meeting the challenges of a situation~ I get weak… I wanna fall in love… being a dominatrix is hard work!! Yes, I downplay my own suffering~ and others' suffering too~ meeooowwww!!

 

 

ed note: add "This isn't religion, it's working directly with the source of religion."; "in terms of enlightenment, all (difference) is sameness hovering on the brink of Reality."

Edited May 1, 2018 by deci belle

[tsuki]

When you play to win, there is no reward.
When playing is rewarding, there is no you to win. 

No rewards means no losses.
No you means no suffering.

You are being a playful being.

Edited May 1, 2018 by tsuki

[QeenB]

@iTommy @iTommy I have exactly the same problem. 

What I am trying to do is to focus intensively on the conversation so I can get into the flow of it. 

Also what I will try next time is just shift awareness back to thinking what should I do/say next rather than noticing that I am present. 

But sometimes I am just 'stuck' observing myself. 

If you get some insights let me know !

[tsuki]

Playing is pointless, but there is fun.
Using is problematic, but there are solutions.

Solving problems is the greatest fun.
Pointless fun is the greatest problem.

Reality is perfect.

[Nahm]

@tsuki Fuck ya it is. A miracle.

[tsuki]

@Nahm Thank you.

@deci belle I think that we understand each other.
Attention is born out of inattentive inattention. One needs to forget that one forgot.
Trying to fully clarify this self-referential phenomenon is an endless source of creativity. We would write these posts endlessly.
This is why I prefer to wrap my words onto themselves to express this. Please treat my other two posts as a sorry attempt to summarize my understanding.

I cannot help to feel that this endless, selfless observation is just a karmic creation in the intellectual dimension.
That we are doing things for no reason and try to understand them.
Or that we have ideas for no reason and try to implement them.
Over and over and over...

[Guest Quanty]

In the path to find yourself, one will encounter serious apparent withdrawals, days, weeks or months. With more pain, brain fog and disorientation, means one is really atrophied and went too much in the illusion. Go all the way in in the discontent, bitterness and pain, in reality this is the tunnel. The tunnel has many bright spots, not only the end of it, because only the mind wants "the end of the tunnel", which never existed in the first place. 

[iTommy]

@deci belle I would say that the conversations are mostly valid. At times, I don't really display any authentic interest in certain conversations, yet many of those are important, at least for the "me"/individual (survival etc.).

This "noticing"/"becoming present" tends to happen quite often throughout the day. I am trying to be more and more mindful throughout life. This (mostly) happens automatically now, but there are still many instances where the mind starts to ramble and I get lost in thought. So, there's still more to gain. 

@tsuki True, it seems quite effortless at this point for me. Noticing, letting go and bringing the attention back to the task truly seems to be the only thing that would work longterm. Thanks for your input!

 

@QeenB I also at times feel "stuck" in observer-mode, at least with most of the present attention, when talking to others. Here I try to bring the attention back to the conversation, yet it's often only partially successful. I think the key here is just doing what you usually will hear from people that teach meditation, and/or about other spiritual stuff.

Notice, let go & put your attention back on whatever it was (in meditation it's often the breath, but in this case the conversation).

@Quanty I am still practising this. Acceptance & Complete surrender to reality.

 

 

[QeenB]

@iTommy Yup same for me. 

This is my experience, maybe you can relate: 

I think, for me, shifting awareness and focusing very delibarety on what to say next will be the best solution. 

2 hours ago, iTommy said:

Notice, let go & put your attention back on whatever it was (in meditation it's often the breath, but in this case the conversation).

[deci belle]

iTommy clarified his description of fog as "becoming present" and summed up the OP with "…proceeding from here". As this development is an immature stage of just becoming present, proceeding from here is prematurely motivated.

I hope iTommy continues to observe without calling attention to one's attention. Just doing this much (little) is resting in the highest good.

 

tsuki wants to arrive at solution within the confines of fire (what is psychologically referential) relative to existentialism. There is no thing. One's enlightening function is not a solution not only because there is no reason. Though you say reality is perfect, you do not know the Causless. Though there is nothing to know,  working with just not-knowing is beyond your ability at this time.

Qanty still wants to coddle.

QeenB wants to talk.

[tsuki]

On 1.05.2018 at 0:15 AM, deci belle said:

I must somehow stress that it is not a matter of energy relative to the self in terms of spontaneous attention/inattention. One's mastery of suspending circumstantial momentum at the instant of recognizing potential goes unnoticed; so no one noticing (it's not an issue of anyone else knowing [or not]), is what constitutes not missing a beat. "No one noticing" is non-psychological awareness of seamless attention-inattention. The person getting hung-up on the juncture (or not) is not about the person; not relative to the person. "I am not the person" is no one noticing. This is not getting hung-up. Seeing is "passing through". This is "endless transformations, planting lotuses in fire, entering the tao in reality."

@deci belle Is there a difference between the term described as: 

• going unnoticed, 
• no one noticing ,
• 'I am not the person'

and simply not relating stealing potential to attain benefit/avoid losses? One cannot steal potential to gain something, as one steals it by discarding himself. There is no-one to gain anything and that's the point in my understanding.

On 1.05.2018 at 0:15 AM, deci belle said:

There are those who would say "so what", and my response is that there is no reason other than ordinary people go along with the light of creation's cycles of birth and death whereas enlightening beings turn the light around and point it at its source. This is the meaning of Reversal. This perspective is made possible first and foremost by "abandonment of the puzzlement" afforded by self-perpetuating self-reflective psychological patterns entertained by un-evolved ego-consciousness. "Abandoning the puzzlement" puts un-evolved ego-consciousness out of job number one.

And that's a good thing. It saves monumental amounts of energy for self-refinement just by not-doing it. That is, not-doing "puzzlement" is itself self-refinement's "stealing of potential" compounded moment by moment without relying on situational momentum. By virtue of "abandoning puzzlement", situational potential begins to vie for one's attention. People, the self is not a separate thing. The personality is a permanent element of the matrix of creation; there are no survivors— and that's a good thing! It's no joke that "it's not nice to fool mother nature." But mother nature will get used to the fact that enlightening being is innate, as soon as one gets used to accepting its function.

This part throws me off.
In the first paragraph, you stress that there is no reason for going either way.
Later however, you seem to point towards redirecting this saved energy towards self-refinement.

What is the counterbalance for self-refinement for 'ordinary people' if there is no difference between going either way?
Is it simply that enlightened beings consciously direct energy towards 'growing up' and circumstances change by themselves in response?
Ordinary people direct energy towards changing circumstances and 'grow up' in response to them.

On 1.05.2018 at 0:15 AM, deci belle said:

The point (of spiritual alchemy) is simply practicing not going along with creation~ that's all it is. It's using situations to refine the self, as opposed to using situations to gratify the self (become karmically indebted). It's working with what is the same in that one uses seeing (selfless non-pychological awareness) to absorb unrefined potential (essence).

Again: what is the difference between refinement and gratification from the point of view of spiritual alchemy?

15 hours ago, deci belle said:

tsuki wants to arrive at solution within the confines of fire (what is psychologically referential) relative to existentialism. There is no thing. One's enlightening function is not a solution not only because there is no reason. Though you say reality is perfect, you do not know the Causless. Though there is nothing to know,  working with just not-knowing is beyond your ability at this time.

I'm still learning the language you express enlightenment in. We may misunderstand each other.
My path manifested enlightenment firstly as the never-ending shift of perspective. I think that you refer to it as fire.
This fire is sustained by effortless observation of symmetries of everyday situations. That one counterpart of a symmetry can be turned on itself to produce the other. This itself is such a violation of rules for 'ordinary people' that obvious solutions to everyday problems are unthinkable for them.

Today I understood that one can 'sustain' fire as the never-ending breaking of rules only by perpetually 'burning' oneself. To be the fuel.
To willingly die, to forget everything. That nothing matters anymore.
This can be interpreted as only working with not-knowing by doing no one noticing of the shift of perspective. By not trying to change perspective to gain something. Then, this change is indistinguishable from seeing. You just know that it was the perfect moment.
This shift of perspective in ordinary people is when they play the trick on themselves. They are reborn.
To see the fire is to become its fuel.

Is there any relationship with any of this to your spiritual practice?