Do you believe in patriotism?

[Davidus]

Do you believe in patriotism? Does nationality or race matter?

[Thomas]

"These tiny enclosures, these boundaries and fences, have troubled man too much. In three thousand years, five thousand wars have been fought. In the past when they fought wars with bows and arrows it was okay, there was not much harm done; if a few people died there was no problem. But now war is total war. Now, it is the suicide of all of mankind. Now, the whole place can become a Hiroshima - any day, at any moment.. Consider the horror of such a war and think of how much energy is going into it. This same energy could fill the entire earth with greenery, could fill it with prosperity. For the first time man could dance absorbed in bliss, could sing songs of ecstasy, could follow the quest of meditation.

But this will not happen. Your so-called patriots, these nationalists.."

~OSHO

I don't think people's nationality matters to me more than their haircut. 
What does matter is if they're dogmatic in regard to any subject: religion, race, philosophy to the point of manifesting it to me by agression, placing judgement and trying to make me act against my will.

Like some meme says:
Belief is like penis - It's perfectly fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around.
Waving might be not that harmful, but if I make a drawing and say it's a Mahomet or let's say the flag of my country - I may suffer physically, because in some person's perception I profaned sacred/national symbol of the virtue he/she sees in it.

All these symbols are protected against criticism and making fun of one is judged by big part of the society as immoral, etc.
That is double standard.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Thomas

[Markus]

I've been thinking about this lately. I come from a small nation (ca 1 million people) so there are a lot of ideas about preserving the country, culture, and ethnicity. 

Personally, I've never resonated with patriotism. I don't think of myself as an Estonian, really. I feel like patriotism and ethnocentrism is divisive. Though technically national pride wouldn't need to mean one thinks their nation is better than others, I think it is an inescapable consequence of such belief. Like Ken Wilber has said, "every boundary line is a potential battle line" and so being a patriot inevitably creates an us vs them mentality, leading to national and ethnic conflict, which isn't much different from religious conflict. Until the majority of the world raises to a worldcentric level, we're bound to have "inside vs outside" problems as opposed to just "inner" problems.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Markus

[FinnishJon]

forget it...

Edited February 7, 2016 by 8LanguageStud
too negative

[Thomas]

9 minutes ago, Markus said:

Personally, I've never resonated with patriotism. I don't think of myself as an Estonian, really.

Exactly! I just don't understand what am I supposed to feel, I've never thought of myself as a Polish guy.
I don't identify with the history of my country even though maybe I should feel some sense of gratitude for those who were fighting for it in WW II.
I feel here no different than I felt in other countries I've been to. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, David said:

Do you believe in patriotism? Does nationality or race matter?

The substance of the above question is BELIEF and the associated values inculcated in us as habits that appear to serve as undeniable principles by which we should behave (i.e. live 'our life'). 

With careful self-enquiry one can find out that almost all of what one takes to be principles of truth by which to "live one's life" is merely conditioning and habits of behaviour (all thought related).

Therefore, one has advanced considerably on the road to wisdom when one 'sees' that any belief is limiting and often injurious and debilitating to oneself and others.  In fact, something like the belief in patriotism adds to the general unrest in multi-ethnic and multi-cultural societies, and such belief can lead to mass chaos, increased aggression and the dissolution of social order.

The concepts of nationality or race, although not belief based, strictly speaking, do have associated belief based stigmas attached to those concepts.   Personal insecurity (of any nature) opens a psychic 'fear of the other' .   The 'other' is anyone or anything that is in some way different from oneself.  This fear can be conscious or subconscious, and again, it has a lot to do with one's background, one's conditioning from childhood and the society in which one is brought up.  

No matter what the nationality (nation of birth) or race,  the people concerned are humans like you and me.   They think, have feelings, likes and dislikes, and hopes for their well being.  They react to threats of aggression just like you and I do.  They may not agree with us or understand us, just like we might not agree with them or understand them - and exactly the same may be true of a sibling or a neighbour.

Patriotism, nationality, race, pride, prejudice, ignorance, fear - these are all areas for "self-improvement".   For many people this may be the first step towards genuine freedom.

joy

Edited February 7, 2016 by walt

[jasonjp1016]

Patriotism is there to keep you playing for the home team.

[Matiyos]

I have for a very long time considered myself a patriot. I felt very strong bonds with my country and it's history, to this extent that for one year I've been active in a nationalist group. I cannot tell where did it come from but that's the way I felt for majority of my life.

And even now I'd say that there might be lot of positive consequences of being a patriot as long as you won't let yourself get too manipulated by often very dogmatic and extreme beliefs and ways of thinking. I've learned compassion cause of charity works we were doing from time to time, I've learned a lot about history of my country, politics and few other things.

Although I've also learned how narrow minded and closed to other ideas most of nationalists/patriots can be. As I was developing myself mentaly and I was questioning my beliefs I realized that lot of those people won't even try to consider other world views as possible, even though I still consider many of them to be very smart people. I believe it's very serious problem when one is trying to become a self actualized person.

I slowly started moving away from them and from patriotism in general. I would lie if I'd say that I'm completly free from it right now but I barely care about it anymore. Right now I think being overly patriotic is complete waste of time and energy. I'm trying to focus on becoming the best version of myself and by that helping my country and ultimatly entire world in a non-direct way. 

Edited February 7, 2016 by Matiyos
grammar

[counterdependent]

I think it depends on the country which you feel patriotic to. 

[clytaemnestra]

No. I don't share the mentality of the majority people in my country. Actually, I hate that mentality.

Being raised in a developing country where our government doesn't care about citizens, I see no reason to like my country/government/nationality/traditions and history and so on. 

[Puntar]

I am a patriot, but my own kind.

I am proud of my race, nation, history, ancestors, and I think every human on planet should be, therefore he should not be ashamed of it. Yet people think patriotism is linked with racism and xenophobia just because people who are so called patriots are often racist and xenophobes, and also hypocrites(like in my case), It does not mean patriotism is a bad thing. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Japnj said:

 

@ Japnj : neither good nor bad - just limits the potential for growth.

[Harry]

2 hours ago, Japnj said:

I am a patriot, but my own kind.

I am proud of my race, nation, history, ancestors 

I've never understood this idea. 

I see pride as the emotional reward for when you overcome an obsticle in your life, taking the path aligned with your values rather than the path of least resistance.

 I feel it is inappropriate to give yourself credit for actions which you had no part in. In fact you, as a human, didn't even exist at the time at which they occurred.

It seems to me like a way to bolster a weak self-esteem by claiming the rewards of others. Moreover, I fear it might stall a person looking to find a solid sense of self, by latching onto groups and societys that can give identity, rather than putting in the emotional labour to think independently to find their own values and ideals.

[Keyblade Viking]

Racial pride is the most stupid thing ever, the exact same thing goes for being pride over the Nation you were born in just because you were born there even though you haven't helped building it at all.

Is there a real form of Nationalism that could actually be good? Honestly I think so but only for a while until society have evolved in to a much higher state of being (or fallen back in to the broken pieces of Babel that we live in now).

What you need to ask yourself is what is the reason for this country's existence? Do this and you'll find that most countries exist only to exist and separate people etc and the people who inhabit the countries are constantly fighting over how they should be run and what the laws should be.

A real country would be based upon a set number of ideals and mentalities and if someone live in a country where they do things different then they want to they simply move on to another country, it's as simple as that.

This way there would be plenty of different nations etc but they would all work under completely different laws and rules and you can if you wish be proud to contribute to that but in the end it will still just satisfy your ego as far as I can see however you can at least love that specific nation for a very good reason.

The only law that all nations would have to follow in this case would be for everyone and anyone to be free to leave to whatever city they wanted.

Ultimately you can't build any perfect utopia and people will simply have to live in the holy spirit but start like that and you might evolve through learning about all the different systems and how well they work etc and start to unite more and more with time.

Either that or like I said previously, we break the principle and become to attach to the ground we were born at that we need to fight for it to change and we go back to a world just like the one we live in now.

PS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOmQP9guIl0

 

Edited February 8, 2016 by Keyblade Viking - Tobias

[FinnishJon]

Those of you who think patriotism is bullshit should read a bit from the book The Righteous Mind, in which Jonathan Haidt talks about evolutionary psychology and morality.  He postulates that there are five flavors of morality that people, globally, have evolved.  

1. Care/Harm
2. Fairness/cheating
3. Loyalty/betrayal
4. Authority/subversion
5. Sanctity/degradation

Patriotism relates to moral foundations 4 and 3 from this list.  Ask yourself 2 questions.  How much would you have to be paid to perform these actions:

3a: Say something critical about your nation (which you believe to be true) while calling in to a talk-radio show in your nation.

4a: Slap a male friend in the face (with his permission) as part of a comedy skit.

Now sum that dollar amount up and then ask yourself how much you would have to be paid to perform these actions:

3b: Say something critical about your nation (which you believe to be true) while calling in, anonymously, to a talk-radio show in a foreign nation.

4b: Slap your father in the face (with his permission) as part of a comedy skit.

If the sum of amounts for you to do (3a and 4a) < the sum of amounts for doing (3b and 4b), then you have a patriotic moral foundation.  If these sums are equal, then you are devoid of this particular moral intuition.

[Aldo Marchand]

The patriotism is oriented by the necessity of protection demanded by a group of citizens of an nation.

Liking your country values is okay when you agree with the direction that all those general values 

are taking the future of you nation.

The patriotism is only really possible on nations that gives the feel of protection to their citizens.

 

[OWL]

A coat of arms, a name, and a flag. This things are just labels but some people believe are real entities, they love their country so much that they adopt it as part of their family. If you become aware, you will notice that you don't really love your country because of the government, the land, or the people there. What you really love about your country is their tags. If we see the earth from space we see no borders because countries are ideas. 

[FinnishJon]

Actually there are 6 flavors of moral intuition... just read a bit further in the book... can anybody (who hasn't read the book) guess what the 6th moral foundation is?  He discovered it later on...

[clytaemnestra]

On 2/7/2016 at 11:48 PM, Japnj said:

I am a patriot, but my own kind.

I am proud of my race, nation, history, ancestors, and I think every human on planet should be, therefore he should not be ashamed of it. Yet people think patriotism is linked with racism and xenophobia just because people who are so called patriots are often racist and xenophobes, and also hypocrites(like in my case), It does not mean patriotism is a bad thing. 

Why should I be proud because I fell out of my mothers' vagina on the territory of the land where I live currently? 

I am proud of my accomplishments. I really didn't choose where to be born. You could have been born in Africa in some tribe, and what then?

[uter]

I think, and the thought is being reinforced by the above comments, that people have very different ideas about what patriotism actually means. In order to effectively debate its merits in this type of forum, we should really have one agreed upon definition of the word to work from.