I want to understand

[zoey101]

1 hour ago, abrakamowse said:

@zoey101 I had the same problem like you. It was very difficult to me to understand because in Christianity there's so much confusion about how to reach "salvation".

For me salvation and enlightenment are the same thing.  I didn't understand when Jesus said "deny yourself" what kind of denial he was talking about. Now is clear to me that he was talking about the Ego. Our "self" is the ego.

When he denied the ego he was in reality fighting agains the devil, think about it. The ego is everything that we learn from the world. Our life is that, our parents, our family, friends... but Jesus was very clear that the most important things for him was his followers, his friends were those who shared the path with him.

When he said "Me and the Father are one" he was saying that he was one with everything. God is everything. He also said, "before Abraham I AM".

He didn't say before Abraham I was... he said I AM. Because he was so deeply identified with his true self, that is God.

 

I have more similarities that I found in Christianity, mostly reading the Mystics, like John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart and others.... Undertanding non duality make a lot of sense with what Jesus taught, and it makes you have a more deep connection with the true Christian teachings.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Arkandeus said:

exactly, it is internal, you are getting this brilliantly 

as most people who begin to get in touch with this stuff you're not used to taking "inner action" which is actually better called "being" you can do external things with focus on inner development to help you get familiar with inner movement

which is why I say Be enlightened and you will become enlightened

when you can make yourself believe that you are being enlightened that will trigger an entire range of actions and emotions

maybe you will start meditating, or doing yoga,or you will try to smile more at people, or be more honest, it can be even more expression of negative emotion, anything

whatever it is, this belief that you are enlightened will trigger action in you

it is the complete opposite of trying to do an action that you believe will enlighten you

this is the important part, the difference in flow of action, your actions do not flow upwards trying to get somewhere

they flow downwards onto the world, expressing the core of who you are,

now be enlightened, and create yourself, what it is to be enlightened?have fun with being enlightened, discovering yourself

 

Oh my God, I think I actually understood all of that! I actually kinda feel excited, which has honestly not happened in a while. 

So it's all about just kinda putting yourself into a positive and proactive mindset, even if shit is going straight up awful, and just holding on to that and allowing your overall attitude and outlook to be affected and changed to positive. Then your attitude and Outlook could positively affect your life, then others (so on and so forth) in basically a trickle down effect?

 

[zoey101]

7 minutes ago, Monkey-man said:

To make a point to previous  comments, I will make point because it might help to someone who wants to progress beyond nonduality:

salvation and enlightenment are not the same things. And Jesus didn't teach oneness and enlightenment per se, he taught faith and obedience to one God and salvation through being born into Holy Spirit (which is not from this world, its not some mystical experience or awakening).

Although he defo was enlightened and one with everything, but that's not what he meant when he said that I am one with God. Have you ever heard Buddha saying such words about Holy , about god or anything like that? Of course no, because Buddha and Jesus taught different things.

God in Christianity (and in Islam/Judaism) is not everything/nonduality/Brahman/nothingness/infinity/being/existence/consciousness/dream/reality/absolute oneness

it is none of this being, it transcends this being. That's why revelations, meaning, miracle, holy, prophets, beliefs and faith, while enlightenment doesn't need any of that, has no meaning, need no faith, no god, no scriptures, and no teachings !

rabit hole goes very deep, seek and you shall find

 

And I'm lost again... Shit...

[who chit]

Quote

Faceless: all this is very simple, to simple for a complex mind. So the mind must become silent first.

Good one Faceless

Silence,silence,silence. This is so fundamental,and often overlooked,especially for those who are new. If the mind is not brought to at least some degree of silence,nearly any action will be fruitless. Silence,imo,is a key factor for any spiritual endeavor.


In the inquiry method above,I preemptively made this suggestion below,as there is most likely not much,if any pre-developed  inner silence going on
1."When/if the mind tries to come up with an answer,remember the fact that you are not the mind or thoughts. Negate what may arise as thought and return back to the question.

If you had been developing some steady inner silence for a while,I would not have emphasized the suggestion. Other than Negate what may arise as thought,and/or sensation. 
I should also emphasize this is a contemplation or introspection. You don't repetitively ask "who am I,who am I, over and over. Ask the question once,then be silent. Return to the question every so often or whenever you feel it is necessary,just remember to be silent after the question.

 As a spoiler: If you decide to give this a go and follow the suggested method,the answer will be immediate. It's simple. Don't be quick to shun it off.



 

Edited April 26, 2018 by who chit

[Faceless]

1 hour ago, Charlotte said:

How did you do this Mr faceless? 

I went into all the different aspects of the conditioned consciousness. The whole of consciousness as it currently was at that moment. So I investigated the nature of all the things that presented themselves as an issue to me. Fear, pleasure, anxiety, depression, anger, confusion, sorrow, suffering, as on as they just kept piling up. I explored what they were, and what caused them. I saw that all such psychological problems had to do with thought and explored thought as whole. Then investigated thought in relation to identity and so on. I saw that thought and the psyche are one and that thought in its very nature was influenced by the other and vice versa. 

Seeing that thought/self are one and that the self being bias/prejudice influencing thought must end or in order to inquire freely and non partially into questions of reality, mind, truth and so. ?

 

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

That’s what I mean when I say to people you are your own book. Everything you need to know is already there in your self

[Faceless]

But could I have done that without actual freedom from fear and the movement of psychological time. ??‍♂️

That was an instantaneous and sudden perception. As the lack of freedom is usually why we can’t explore without self decieving, and getting caught in illusion to escape fear. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Faceless

[robdl]

10 hours ago, zoey101 said:

So I have been trying to read up on some of the stuff Leo has posted, as well as what others on this forum have posted, about meditation and reaching "enlightenment". I read some stuff about the "ego-self" vs "non-self".

I am trying to understand it all but it's so overwhelming and hard to keep up with. I spoke to a few of you guys about how I have been having relationship connection issues. I have been doing my best to work on it, but this subject is just so big and complex.

Is the "ego-self" like the you that is still tied to worldly things? and the "non-self" is the you once you have decided to live beyond those things? and is that supposed to be the point in which you reach "enlightenment"? Or is it supposed to be something like once you feel connected and "one" with everything and everyone around you, then you have reached "enlightenment"? and how do you know if you have truly done that?

I was raised Christian and pretty poor, so the idea of living beyond things is pretty much second nature to me. But I know I can't be "enlightened" now when I feel far from peaceful... 

I also saw something about Koans in relation to meditation and Zen practices. Riddles designed to "open the mind" and help you unravel truths about the world and yourself. The most famous one would be "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

This is supposed to "open the mind" but how do you reach the point where you are not sitting there just thinking about what the actual sound would be? Is this stuff even related? I want to understand, but I feel like I am just missing the whole point of it...

If your background is Christianity, check out Alan Watts' book:

"Just as groundbreaking today as it was when it first appeared, Behold the Spirit is philosopher Alan Watts’s timeless argument for the place of mystical religion in today’s world. Drawing on his experiences as a former priest, Watts skillfully explains how the intuition of Eastern religion—Zen Buddhism, in particular—can be incorporated into the doctrines of Western Christianity, allowing people of all creeds to enjoy a deeper, more meaningful relationship with the spiritual in our present troubled times."

[Faceless]

6 minutes ago, robdl said:

If your background is Christianity, check out Alan Watts' book:

"Just as groundbreaking today as it was when it first appeared, Behold the Spirit is philosopher Alan Watts’s timeless argument for the place of mystical religion in today’s world. Drawing on his experiences as a former priest, Watts skillfully explains how the intuition of Eastern religion—Zen Buddhism, in particular—can be incorporated into the doctrines of Western Christianity, allowing people of all creeds to enjoy a deeper, more meaningful relationship with the spiritual in our present troubled times."

I have never read any books of his. But I have listened to him recently. His sharings really resonate with me. Also he is a great communicator. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Faceless

[zoey101]

Yeah... Definitely confused... Idk why it won't click 

[robdl]

37 minutes ago, zoey101 said:

Yeah... Definitely confused... Idk why it won't click 

Have you had any experiences with psychedelics? Literally going out of your mind may be what it takes for it to click.  It's hard to understand this stuff from the perspective of conventional mind.  How can the mind possibly fathom what lies beyond mind?   What you're after --- the mind can never touch.  So you're confused, and rightfully so!

Edited April 27, 2018 by robdl

[ajasatya]

@zoey101 we suffer because we don't want to give up on egoic desires. we're addicted to possessiveness and stubbornness. we want to control people and it's frustrating when we fail.

we suffer because we're childish. it's that simple.

face yourself and let go of selfishness.

[Leo Gura]

12 hours ago, zoey101 said:

Is the "ego-self" like the you that is still tied to worldly things? and the "non-self" is the you once you have decided to live beyond those things?

No, no, no.

The ego self is your physical existence. The idea that were born and are alive.

The no-self is death of that.

Imagine that one day your life just ended. Like you were never even born. But your body keeps on living. That is enlightenment.

What people fail to understand about enlightenment is that "being alive" and "being born" and "physical existence" are just IDEAS! And once you realize they are IDEAS, all of reality will unravel and your life will collapse into Infinity.

Physical existence is not a fact. It is an IDEA.

[Ethan_05]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Physical existence is not a fact. It is an IDEA.

Wow, dang I never thought of it that way.

[abrakamowse]

1 hour ago, zoey101 said:

Yeah... Definitely confused... Idk why it won't click 

@zoey101  there's many perspectives, we all see reality from our experiences and we explain it in the way that it make sense to us.

Just take what your intuition tells you is true, and continue investigating always with an open mind. Search for the answers inside you. 

I always listen to everything and I don't think I ever had the "ultimate truth", I am always open to learn new things. Don't get confused because everybody has different perspectives or I will better say "different ways of saying the same thing". 

For example, I continue in my experience seeing that enlightenment is another word for salvation. Others can see that differently. But, remember one Zen story that is very true... the story of the elephant and the blind monks.

Quote

 

In the Canki Sutta he (Buddha) describes a row of blind men holding on to each other as an example of those who follow an old text that has passed down from generation to generation. In the Udana (68–69) he uses the elephant parable to describe sectarian quarrels. A king has the blind men of the capital brought to the palace, where an elephant is brought in and they are asked to describe it.

When the blind men had each felt a part of the elephant, the king went to each of them and said to each: 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me, what sort of thing is an elephant?'

The men assert the elephant is either like a pot (the blind man who felt the elephant's head), a winnowing basket (ear), a plowshare (tusk), a plow (trunk), a granary(body), a pillar (foot), a mortar (back), a pestle (tail) or a brush (tip of the tail).

The men cannot agree with one another and come to blows over the question of what it is like and their dispute delights the king. The Buddha ends the story by comparing the blind men to preachers and scholars who are blind and ignorant and hold to their own views: "Just so are these preachers and scholars holding various views blind and unseeing.... In their ignorance they are by nature quarrelsome, wrangling, and disputatious, each maintaining reality is thus and thus." The Buddha then speaks the following verse:

O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing.

 

 

Alan Watts explain some of the things I told you in this video, watch it when you have time. Alan Watts is super interesting and he was a ordained as an Episcopal priest, then he continue studying others religions and philosophies , he's really good.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by abrakamowse
add video of Alan Watts

[abrakamowse]

 

Just watch and arrive at your own conclusions, don't believe anyone. You are the way.

Edited April 27, 2018 by abrakamowse

[John Iverson]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, no, no.

The ego self is your physical existence. The idea that were born and are alive.

The no-self is death of that.

Imagine that one day your life just ended. Like you were never even born. But your body keeps on living. That is enlightenment.

What people fail to understand about enlightenment is that "being alive" and "being born" and "physical existence" are just IDEAS! And once you realize they are IDEAS, all of reality will unravel and your life will collapse into Infinity.

Physical existence is not a fact. It is an IDEA.

Idea? Of an ego? Idea of the self?? To maintain the self?

[who chit]

Whatever you "know" up to now is an accumulation of concepts, ideas,beliefs,opinions you have gathered throughout life.
2+2= 4. This has been told to you as being true. At some point someone said if you add these two numbers this is what it equals. You don't know that for sure,you were told that and made to believe it. Conditioning.

Truth: Numbers don't exist in reality. They are a concept,an idea and don't really exist. What is this symbol 2. It is a conceptualized image to support another idea someone decided to call a "number" . When you look up at the "sky". Is that really what it is. A sky ? That is a name,an idea, Without calling it a sky,what the hell is it? You don't experience a sky so how can you know it really exists?.   By the way,the sky doesn't really exist either. It is a perceiving of an unreal object, in a non existent mind.

What fun,eh?

[Arkandeus]

8 hours ago, zoey101 said:

 

Oh my God, I think I actually understood all of that! I actually kinda feel excited, which has honestly not happened in a while. 

So it's all about just kinda putting yourself into a positive and proactive mindset, even if shit is going straight up awful, and just holding on to that and allowing your overall attitude and outlook to be affected and changed to positive. Then your attitude and Outlook could positively affect your life, then others (so on and so forth) in basically a trickle down effect?

 

indeed , that's it, excitement is a great sign

it's more then a trickle down effect, you will change the very matter of reality, 

as your lovely will dawns upon the world, you will automatically be interested in finding out who or what you really are

Edited April 27, 2018 by Arkandeus

[Charlotte]

@Faceless Thanks for sharing that. Sounds extremely interesting! I'm really interested in going down the route of exploring the nature of thought and how it links to identity etc I believe that could break down a lot for me. 

Would you recommend any sources? Books? Video's? Or is it a case of Googlesvile?

Thanks again! ♥️

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Monkey-man said:

God in Christianity (and in Islam/Judaism) is not everything/nonduality/Brahman/nothingness/infinity/being/existence/consciousness/dream/reality/absolute oneness

it is none of this being, it transcends this being. That's why revelations, meaning, miracle, holy, prophets, beliefs and faith, while enlightenment doesn't need any of that, has no meaning, need no faith, no god, no scriptures, and no teachings !

This is wrong.

It's very obvious what God is when once you awaken. You are it.

Any supernatural or mystical phenomena will be lesser than awakening. There is a lot supernatural phenomena possible within the field of spirituality, but awakening will beat them all. Don't get distracted with shiny objects.