I want to understand

[zoey101]

So I have been trying to read up on some of the stuff Leo has posted, as well as what others on this forum have posted, about meditation and reaching "enlightenment". I read some stuff about the "ego-self" vs "non-self".

I am trying to understand it all but it's so overwhelming and hard to keep up with. I spoke to a few of you guys about how I have been having relationship connection issues. I have been doing my best to work on it, but this subject is just so big and complex.

Is the "ego-self" like the you that is still tied to worldly things? and the "non-self" is the you once you have decided to live beyond those things? and is that supposed to be the point in which you reach "enlightenment"? Or is it supposed to be something like once you feel connected and "one" with everything and everyone around you, then you have reached "enlightenment"? and how do you know if you have truly done that?

I was raised Christian and pretty poor, so the idea of living beyond things is pretty much second nature to me. But I know I can't be "enlightened" now when I feel far from peaceful... 

I also saw something about Koans in relation to meditation and Zen practices. Riddles designed to "open the mind" and help you unravel truths about the world and yourself. The most famous one would be "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

This is supposed to "open the mind" but how do you reach the point where you are not sitting there just thinking about what the actual sound would be? Is this stuff even related? I want to understand, but I feel like I am just missing the whole point of it...

[Arkandeus]

your mind is already open, for you are asking these questions

go back to before you were born, and beyond your death, there is your non-self, it is here now as well, it is containing your self like a baby in the arms of its mother

but you're busy being a self right now

Quote

But I know I can't be "enlightened" now when I feel far from peaceful...

enlightenment starts by realizing you are enlightened, it is a return, you can only return to a place that is familiar

you're not returned yet, that's true,but you will only return by believing you've returned,its pretty much magics

unlike the physical world where we take action to gain something

in the inner world we gain something, and then the action comes, things work in your reverse

be enlightened,and then you will enlighten, 

be the winner, and then you will win

be happy, and you'll become happy

love your unpeaceful life, and through love of your entire life

both good or bad, you will become the mother holding the baby, the non-self

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Arkandeus

[zoey101]

so its basically like figuring out what you want, believing it'll happen, and then just waiting for the universe to somehow intervene and make it happen?

That's so confusing... We have to take action to achieve what we want, right? or is this supposed to be 100% internal and not external in any way?

and where do the Koans fit into all of that? is that a separate version of meditation?

I'm sorry if I sound dumb... I've just never really tried to look into this stuff before and now that I am, I feel like I am not getting it at all...

 

[who chit]

Forget about distinctions of no self,ego self,higher self,lower self. There is only 1 "self" and you call this self "I".
 Identification of "I" with objects,the body and mind is the bondage.

Would you say:
I am the body or I have a body.
I am the mind or I have a mind
I am a thought or I have a thought.

If : I have a body, I have a mind,I have a thought,then it is clear that "I" am none of these.

If  "I" am not the body,not the mind,not a thought then ...who or what am I ?

Put aside all other thoughts,concerns etc., and ask yourself this question. who or what am I ? 
It may help to close your eyes as you are directing this question inward to yourself and not externally.
When/if the mind tries to come up with an answer,remember the fact that you are not the mind or thoughts. The mind can try but can never presume to know your true nature. Negate what may arise as thought and return back to the question "who or what am I?"

This is the direct method of self inquiry.

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by who chit

[Faceless]

9 minutes ago, who chit said:

Forget about distinctions of no self,ego self,higher self,lower self. There is only 1 "self" and you call this self "I".
 Identification of "I" with objects,the body and mind is the bondage.

Would you say:
I am the body or I have a body.
I am the mind or I have a mind
I am a thought or I have a thought.

If : I have a body, I have a mind,I have a thought,then it is clear that "I" am none of these.

If  "I" am not the body,not the mind,not a thought then ...who or what am I ?

Put aside all other thoughts,concerns etc., and ask yourself this question. who or what am I ? 
It may help to close your eyes as you are directing this question inward to yourself and not externally.
When/if the mind tries to come up with an answer,remember the fact that you are not the mind or thoughts. The mind can try but can never presume to know your true nature. Negate what may arise as thought and return back to the question "who or what am I?"

This is the direct method of self inquiry.

 

Great sharing?

[Faceless]

For me I just observed myself after the movement of psychological time ended. Then I could investigate free of fear. 

[who chit]

Quote

Great sharing?

Thanks bro

[zoey101]

1 hour ago, Faceless said:

after the movement of psychological time ended.

What? crap... now I'm really lost... I'm just making myself feel dumber and dumber...

[Faceless]

22 minutes ago, zoey101 said:

What? crap... now I'm really lost... I'm just making myself feel dumber and dumber...

I probably have an IQ of about 20 so??‍♂️ Lol I never went to school and was never interested in the intellect really. Although I am glad I didn’t as I rely more on awareness of my own movements/nature. 

For me, solitude was the answer. I observed myself and nature simultaneously and just seemed to understand things better. I cant imagine getting anywhere asking others  anyway. This in my point of view has to be down on your own. 

Do you understand the concept of psychological time? 

If so you can observe it in your own living experiences. 

If not look into what psychological time is. To me it’s the most direct and simple way to really embody any form of understanding. Because then you are not just understanding but you are actually expressing/reflecting that understanding in your daily living/conduct.

check it out?

all this is very simple, to simple for a complex mind. So the mind must become silent first.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Faceless

[zoey101]

Ok, I'll look into it! thank you 

[abrakamowse]

@zoey101 I had the same problem like you. It was very difficult to me to understand because in Christianity there's so much confusion about how to reach "salvation".

For me salvation and enlightenment are the same thing.  I didn't understand when Jesus said "deny yourself" what kind of denial he was talking about. Now is clear to me that he was talking about the Ego. Our "self" is the ego.

When he denied the ego he was in reality fighting agains the devil, think about it. The ego is everything that we learn from the world. Our life is that, our parents, our family, friends... but Jesus was very clear that the most important things for him was his followers, his friends were those who shared the path with him.

When he said "Me and the Father are one" he was saying that he was one with everything. God is everything. He also said, "before Abraham I AM".

He didn't say before Abraham I was... he said I AM. Because he was so deeply identified with his true self, that is God.

 

I have more similarities that I found in Christianity, mostly reading the Mystics, like John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart and others.... Undertanding non duality make a lot of sense with what Jesus taught, and it makes you have a more deep connection with the true Christian teachings.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by abrakamowse

[Faceless]

3 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

@zoey101 I had the same problem like you. It was very difficult to me to understand because in Christianity there's so many confusion about how to reach "salvation".

For me salvation and enlightenment are the same thing.  I didn't understand when Jesus said "deny yourself" what kind of denial he was talking about. Now is clear to me that he was talking about the Ego. Our "self" is the ego.

When he denied the ego he was in reality fighting agains the devil, think about it. The ego is everything that we learn from the world. Our life is that, our parents, our family, friends... but Jesus was very clear that the most important things for him was his followers, his friends were those who shared the path with him.

When he said "Me and the Father are one" he was saying that he was one with everything. God is everything. He also said, before Abraham I AM.

He didn't say before Abraham I was... he said I AM. Because he was so deeply identified with his true self, that is God.

 

I have more similarities that I found in Christianity, mostly reading the Mystics, like John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart and others.... Undertanding non duality make a lot of sense with what Jesus taught, and it makes you have a more deeply connection with the Christian teachings.

 

 

To bad that is not is not preached?

[Faceless]

Poor Jesus ?

poor people who believe what is preached?

poor us ?

 

[Arkandeus]

5 hours ago, zoey101 said:

so its basically like figuring out what you want, believing it'll happen, and then just waiting for the universe to somehow intervene and make it happen?

That's so confusing... We have to take action to achieve what we want, right? or is this supposed to be 100% internal and not external in any way?

 

exactly, it is internal, you are getting this brilliantly 

as most people who begin to get in touch with this stuff you're not used to taking "inner action" which is actually better called "being" you can do external things with focus on inner development to help you get familiar with inner movement

which is why I say Be enlightened and you will become enlightened

when you can make yourself believe that you are being enlightened that will trigger an entire range of actions and emotions

maybe you will start meditating, or doing yoga,or you will try to smile more at people, or be more honest, it can be even more expression of negative emotion, anything

whatever it is, this belief that you are enlightened will trigger action in you

it is the complete opposite of trying to do an action that you believe will enlighten you

this is the important part, the difference in flow of action, your actions do not flow upwards trying to get somewhere

they flow downwards onto the world, expressing the core of who you are,

now be enlightened, and create yourself, what it is to be enlightened?have fun with being enlightened, discovering yourself

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Arkandeus

[abrakamowse]

2 minutes ago, Faceless said:

To bad that is not is not preached?

Oh my god... that is really bad. But that's because those who want to teach are blind too... sadly.

[Faceless]

33 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

Oh my god... that is really bad. But that's because those who want to teach are blind too... sadly.

My good friend I grew up with parents are like that. His dad was even a preacher for a while. My friend suffers tremendously. 

Hes doing better since we share stuff with one another. But he can’t seem to break that conditioning. Everything is determined by the that conditioning. View on life/existence. Classic alienation, separation, the stranger in the world outlook. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Faceless

[Nahm]

@zoey101 Have you done this yet? 

 

5 hours ago, who chit said:

Forget about distinctions of no self,ego self,higher self,lower self. There is only 1 "self" and you call this self "I".
 Identification of "I" with objects,the body and mind is the bondage.

Would you say:
I am the body or I have a body.
I am the mind or I have a mind
I am a thought or I have a thought.

If : I have a body, I have a mind,I have a thought,then it is clear that "I" am none of these.

If  "I" am not the body,not the mind,not a thought then ...who or what am I ?

Put aside all other thoughts,concerns etc., and ask yourself this question. who or what am I ? 
It may help to close your eyes as you are directing this question inward to yourself and not externally.
When/if the mind tries to come up with an answer,remember the fact that you are not the mind or thoughts. The mind can try but can never presume to know your true nature. Negate what may arise as thought and return back to the question "who or what am I?"

This is the direct method of self inquiry.

 

@who chit Excellent post. 

[Faceless]

The question is will thought let go of the thinker enough to go direct in inquiry. For me when I saw the falsness of the thinker only then could I move on. 

Inquiry for me wasn’t as such. I went into all the different aspects of he conditioned consciousness. In this I learned about the whole of consciousness, which in seeing the falsness that I was that conditioned conciousness. This made the act of direct and total negation of that entire field. 

Also for me their was first freedom then inquiry was more brought about with a greater quality then if I would have inquired before their was that freedom. 

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Faceless

[Charlotte]

7 minutes ago, Faceless said:

me when I saw the falsness of the thinker only then could I move on. 

How did you do this Mr faceless? 

[Monkey-man]

To make a point to previous  comments, I will make point because it might help to someone who wants to progress beyond nonduality:

salvation and enlightenment are not the same things. And Jesus didn't teach oneness and enlightenment per se, he taught faith and obedience to one God and salvation through being born into Holy Spirit (which is miracle that can be in this life, but it's not coming from this world/from this existence, its not some mystical experience or awakening).

Although he defo was enlightened and one with everything, but that's not what he meant when he said that I am one with God. Have you ever heard Buddha saying such words about Holy , about god or anything like that? Of course no, because Buddha and Jesus taught different things.

God in Christianity (and in Islam/Judaism) is not everything/nonduality/Brahman/nothingness/infinity/being/existence/consciousness/dream/reality/absolute oneness

it is none of this being, it transcends this being. That's why revelations, meaning, miracle, holy, prophets, beliefs and faith, while enlightenment doesn't need any of that, has no meaning, need no faith, no god, no scriptures, and no teachings !

rabit hole goes very deep, seek and you shall find

Leo is correct when he intuits and says that there can be more than just absolute truth, infinity. When you might think what can be more than infinity and absolute truth? Leo doesn't know what it is, but his intuition is correct

Edited April 26, 2018 by Monkey-man