Is talent really a myth?

Robert · April 20, 2018

In Leo's life purpose course one of the things he claims is that talent is a myth and that hard work is what gets you the real skill and mastery. IIRC he also says that the most talented people were talented only because they started training early on, not because they were born with it or "gifted."

I've recently been wondering how true this really is. I think Leo is right, but I am also wondering whether or not there can be any exceptions to what he said. Can someone simply be gifted and have a skill that required no deliberate practice or training to attain? How many people just get lucky and somehow end up with abilities without putting in much effort?

What do you guys think?

@Leo Gura Please correct me if I misrepresented your views in any way.

Nahm · April 20, 2018

@Robert What matters is how you see this. “Talent” is watching a puppet show without realizing the strings.

When I was 13 I started playing guitar. I met a classmate who also played, and was phenomenal. He was playing Yngwie Malmsteen at 14. I asked him how he got so good. He flipped his guitar around and on the back, he had carved with a knife;

”When you’re not practicing, he is. When you meet him, you will lose.”

YaNanNallari · April 20, 2018

It matters so so little if someone is talented in the end. If your talent is great life habits and working hard then you'll always get further in anything that matters.

BjarkeT · April 20, 2018

Well if you read on deliberate pratice it agrees with this

Edited April 20, 2018 by BjarkeT

Otogi · April 20, 2018

One would be a fool to deny talent and genes. They both give an advantage to those who have them.

Those who say talent is a myth and genes do not matter mean that you can become a winner as well through hard practice. It won't come as easy for you but it's not impossible. Anyone can make it, so you don't need talent. However it's nice to have it.

BjarkeT · April 20, 2018

@Otogi actually they do mean that there is no such thing as talent one of them is anderson erickson and he have been researching this for over 20 years and haven't found anything of people being born with talent which is why he means it when he says it or at least have not yet found it. The only thing he found was related to how tall someone was for example which can play a role in sports. Noticed that i am not saying this because its my opinion rather i am mentioning what they found which is based on a lot of research. At least to the research on deliberate practice which have been studying this they haven't found any talent. it all comes to how you pratice.

Edited April 20, 2018 by BjarkeT

Nahm · April 21, 2018

@Otogi Give epigentics a quick look-see.

Robert · April 22, 2018

On 4/20/2018 at 8:40 AM, Nahm said:

@Robert What matters is how you see this. “Talent” is watching a puppet show without realizing the strings.

I agree. Everything is based on how you see it. I noticed also, even before making this thread, that my own definition of talent would change sometimes. But I love your analogy there. Seems to be how most people look at it.

On 4/20/2018 at 8:40 AM, Nahm said:

When I was 13 I started playing guitar. I met a classmate who also played, and was phenomenal. He was playing Yngwie Malmsteen at 14. I asked him how he got so good. He flipped his guitar around and on the back, he had carved with a knife;

”When you’re not practicing, he is. When you meet him, you will lose.”

That's inspiring! I always push myself to take that attitude. Next time I fall during training I will remember that quote!

Always gotta stay ahead!

On 4/20/2018 at 0:16 PM, YaNanNallari said:

It matters so so little if someone is talented in the end. If your talent is great life habits and working hard then you'll always get further in anything that matters.

Hmmm, maybe you're right!

On 4/20/2018 at 0:39 PM, BjarkeT said:

Well if you read on deliberate pratice it agrees with this

I already have read on deliberate practice, but it doesn't matter. Not everything you read in books is true.

On 4/20/2018 at 1:14 PM, Otogi said:

One would be a fool to deny talent and genes. They both give an advantage to those who have them.

Agreed.

On 4/20/2018 at 1:14 PM, Otogi said:

Those who say talent is a myth and genes do not matter mean that you can become a winner as well through hard practice. It won't come as easy for you but it's not impossible. Anyone can make it, so you don't need talent. However it's nice to have it.

This is exactly what I was thinking, lol. You're probably right. Thanks for the clarification.

On 4/20/2018 at 1:34 PM, BjarkeT said:

@Otogi actually they do mean that there is no such thing as talent one of them is anderson erickson and he have been researching this for over 20 years and haven't found anything of people being born with talent which is why he means it when he says it or at least have not yet found it. The only thing he found was related to how tall someone was for example which can play a role in sports. Noticed that i am not saying this because its my opinion rather i am mentioning what they found which is based on a lot of research. At least to the research on deliberate practice which have been studying this they haven't found any talent. it all comes to how you pratice.

To be honest, this answers my question perfectly. I was recently trying to think of good examples of abilities that required no serious deliberate "training", and I couldn't think of a single obvious one... But height in sports is a perfect example! Height can be considered a talent, have you ever thought of this? It proves that talent is not a myth.

kieranperez · April 22, 2018

I actually have really mixed feelings with talent considering the fact that I'm a competitive but passionate athlete and have been all of my life. The bottom line is that yes, talent does exist. However, at the end of the day it's not something you can control. For me this has been a difficult pill to swallow as an athlete as I see sports as a perfect representation on the limits of what hard, smart, committed training. So many people really are just better than you at certain things. As a competitive middle/long distance runner that competes anywhere from the track, roads, trails, cross country, mountains, etc. there is no clearer evidence of this. However, talent will not bring you fulfillment. This sounds overused but it really is true. I don't care if you're Michael Jordan or an absolute nobody who will never find themselves on any media platform getting attention... When you give EVERYTHING to what you're doing, the end result will ALWAYS be something you can look back on and feel at peace with. There are many basketball players that have the capabilities of Michael Jordan but to this day there is only 1 Michael Jordan. I've seen guys get very far off of just talent in certain things. I've had friends who literally never trained in the off-season in prep for the upcoming cross country or track season and then win a state title and get partial or full rides to Division 1 NCAA schools.

However, you also need to be aware and ask what lens are you really looking through? What kinda level of any version of success are you talking about exactly? If you're talking about those at the top and are #1 in their field/craft, then they had to match all that talent with their insane work ethic and then some.

There's nuance to this matter of talent because it is a real thing but it's very misunderstood. Being naive and saying talent doesn't matter or doesn't exist is just foolish. Put it into context and see the big picture.

BjarkeT · April 23, 2018

@Robert just becarefull about wish full thinking because in science what is true is true until proven otherwise and you can't just ignore the true like that then you are just in denial. You can't just chose what is true that is not how it works. If you are saying deliberate pratice isn't true then please provide the evidence to support it. Anders erickson talk about him self that it's true and have always been able to explain how somebody became good in hes book peak performance.

And there is also books like deep work(cal newport says deep work is a part of deliberate pratice), talent is overrated thats should talk about this

there is a lot of research that point towards deliberate pratice is true and that says talent is either not true or not as important as we think related to becoming world class at something as mentioned above. This is not just my opinion.

What really matters is how much time you spend on deliberate pratice or purpose ful pratice on rarer and valuable skills. The more rarer and valuable skills you are good at the better chance you have of becoming so good you can't be ignored which cal newport also talks about if you just are good at common skills and that isn't that valuable you are likely not getting that much attention. One reason may be because they would be able easily to just find someone else with a similar skill set as the skills are common. The more you pratice the better chance you also have of developing mental representations which explain why people who are good at what they do don't necessarily or always have to pratice at something because they already have build the mental representations required.

all of this is based on research i have read i have already mentioned some. An other source would be the top performer course by cal newport and hes book so good they can't ignore you.

https://qz.com/707205/successful-people-dont-have-natural-talent-they-have-something-thats-much-more-important/

and sorry but did you actually read my comment because i even talk about how tall you are, are the only thing they found that came close to the definition of talent

Edited April 23, 2018 by BjarkeT

Amer · April 24, 2018

On 4/20/2018 at 8:54 AM, Robert said:

IIRC he also says that the most talented people were talented only because they started training early on, not because they were born with it or "gifted."

if you were not born with a gift or talent, it doesn't mean that you cannot attain it.

at the same time, even if you were born talented with something (which actually does exist) without hard work you won't really accomplish much or make any significance.

dude · April 25, 2018

There exists a single tennis court and a single tennis teacher called Larisa in Russia. This teacher produced more top twenty raking tennis woman than the whole united states. Practice is key.

Edited April 25, 2018 by dude

Elisabeth · April 25, 2018

Practice may be key to becoming world class, but I find it really hard to believe that there's no talent.

So things like IQ, the way your body learns and remembers movements, an absolute hearing in music, your visual imagination, your capacity for abstraction, the way you process emotions ... none of the have anything to do with genetics? Everyone can train them to the same level?

And if everyone can train them to the same level, how much does the time and effort needed vary?

I mean, if someone needs 10 000 hours, and someone else needs 20 000 hours to the same level, I call that talent. If "the most talented" needs 10 000 and the "less talented" needs 11 000 hours, ok, I'm willing to say there's no significant difference. (Although, well, it's no real difference to world-class mastery range, but if 500 extra hours have to be put in just to get to level ground with those "more tallented", well, that's a huge difference to the individual and their motivation level.)

Robert · April 28, 2018

On 4/21/2018 at 11:12 PM, kieranperez said:

I actually have really mixed feelings with talent considering the fact that I'm a competitive but passionate athlete and have been all of my life. The bottom line is that yes, talent does exist. However, at the end of the day it's not something you can control. For me this has been a difficult pill to swallow as an athlete as I see sports as a perfect representation on the limits of what hard, smart, committed training. So many people really are just better than you at certain things. As a competitive middle/long distance runner that competes anywhere from the track, roads, trails, cross country, mountains, etc. there is no clearer evidence of this. However, talent will not bring you fulfillment. This sounds overused but it really is true. I don't care if you're Michael Jordan or an absolute nobody who will never find themselves on any media platform getting attention... When you give EVERYTHING to what you're doing, the end result will ALWAYS be something you can look back on and feel at peace with. There are many basketball players that have the capabilities of Michael Jordan but to this day there is only 1 Michael Jordan. I've seen guys get very far off of just talent in certain things. I've had friends who literally never trained in the off-season in prep for the upcoming cross country or track season and then win a state title and get partial or full rides to Division 1 NCAA schools.

Wow, that's amazing! I agree with every point you made here, too! You know what you're talking about.

On 4/21/2018 at 11:12 PM, kieranperez said:

However, you also need to be aware and ask what lens are you really looking through? What kinda level of any version of success are you talking about exactly? If you're talking about those at the top and are #1 in their field/craft, then they had to match all that talent with their insane work ethic and then some.

I'm talking about the biggest success possible; world class, master, top 1%, etc. So yes, I do agree that an insane work ethic is necessary even if you have talent.

On 4/21/2018 at 11:12 PM, kieranperez said:

There's nuance to this matter of talent because it is a real thing but it's very misunderstood. Being naive and saying talent doesn't matter or doesn't exist is just foolish. Put it into context and see the big picture.

Exactly!

On 4/23/2018 at 4:08 AM, BjarkeT said:

@Robert just becarefull about wish full thinking because in science what is true is true until proven otherwise and you can't just ignore the true like that then you are just in denial. You can't just chose what is true that is not how it works. If you are saying deliberate pratice isn't true then please provide the evidence to support it. Anders erickson talk about him self that it's true and have always been able to explain how somebody became good in hes book peak performance.

And there is also books like deep work(cal newport says deep work is a part of deliberate pratice), talent is overrated thats should talk about this

there is a lot of research that point towards deliberate pratice is true and that says talent is either not true or not as important as we think related to becoming world class at something as mentioned above. This is not just my opinion.

What really matters is how much time you spend on deliberate pratice or purpose ful pratice on rarer and valuable skills. The more rarer and valuable skills you are good at the better chance you have of becoming so good you can't be ignored which cal newport also talks about if you just are good at common skills and that isn't that valuable you are likely not getting that much attention. One reason may be because they would be able easily to just find someone else with a similar skill set as the skills are common. The more you pratice the better chance you also have of developing mental representations which explain why people who are good at what they do don't necessarily or always have to pratice at something because they already have build the mental representations required.

all of this is based on research i have read i have already mentioned some. An other source would be the top performer course by cal newport and hes book so good they can't ignore you.

https://qz.com/707205/successful-people-dont-have-natural-talent-they-have-something-thats-much-more-important/

and sorry but did you actually read my comment because i even talk about how tall you are, are the only thing they found that came close to the definition of talent

Dude, there is so much wrong with what you said here, I seriously don't have time to address everything.

It's good that you read those books, but you can't just call them truth like that. You also have to make sure that you understand the books fully.

But what I like is that you seem to really value hard work, which is a great thing. That will get you far in life.

On 4/24/2018 at 1:52 AM, Amer said:

if you were not born with a gift or talent, it doesn't mean that you cannot attain it.

True

On 4/24/2018 at 1:52 AM, Amer said:

at the same time, even if you were born talented with something (which actually does exist) without hard work you won't really accomplish much or make any significance.

Depends on how much you want to accomplish or what you deem significant. The bigger the goal, the harder you will have to work.

On 4/25/2018 at 10:13 AM, dude said:

There exists a single tennis court and a single tennis teacher called Larisa in Russia. This teacher produced more top twenty raking tennis woman than the whole united states. Practice is key.

Wow! Pretty damn amazing and inspiring.

On 4/25/2018 at 11:02 AM, Elisabeth said:

Practice may be key to becoming world class, but I find it really hard to believe that there's no talent.

So things like IQ, the way your body learns and remembers movements, an absolute hearing in music, your visual imagination, your capacity for abstraction, the way you process emotions ... none of the have anything to do with genetics? Everyone can train them to the same level?

And if everyone can train them to the same level, how much does the time and effort needed vary?

I mean, if someone needs 10 000 hours, and someone else needs 20 000 hours to the same level, I call that talent. If "the most talented" needs 10 000 and the "less talented" needs 11 000 hours, ok, I'm willing to say there's no significant difference. (Although, well, it's no real difference to world-class mastery range, but if 500 extra hours have to be put in just to get to level ground with those "more tallented", well, that's a huge difference to the individual and their motivation level.)

You're smart!

With you 100%.

Thanks for the responses, guys. Fun little read.

blazed · April 28, 2018

It's both.

There is an element of talent, and that's how your entire body is wired. Nature has effects as well as nuture.

Some people have photographic memory (these people usually have other problems like autism, etc) and if you look at a city scape and try to compete in drawing from memory you will lose, not because of the hard work they put in but mainly because they're better wired for it.

These days in olympic sports people get scouted on their genetics and ability to do something well. Just look at the fastest sprinters in the world.

However, here's the thing, you can't do anything about your talent so theres no point on focusing on it, you can only focus on learning and practicing, and maintaining a optimal body and schedule, that's all, so put all your attention on that.

Being able to work hard is also a talent, you can have some really talented people who failed because they had no talent in the ability to get things done.

Having the talent to grind out results is one of the best talents in the world, these people usually can brute force their way to results.

Now if someone is talented + hard working, then they're usually the very top people in their profession, the best of the best.

Nahm · April 28, 2018

Reality is a myth.

egoless · April 29, 2018

Talent is knowing what you are good at and what is your passion and constantly improving it.

Lynnel · April 29, 2018

@Robert

There is no talent per se as you learn everything from the begining.

But your environement and your genetic can play a huge role in it. For instance your mental processing speed, whether your memory is accoustic or not, even maybe the basic level of consciousness of your family. But the skill itself is only training. But some people may train faster/ more efficiently than you.

BjarkeT · April 30, 2018

what makes you think I don't understand them fully? Sorry, but from the looks of it, it seems like you don't understand it fully because if you did you would have known that the kind of practice dude talked about is what deliberate practice is about or at least already be aware of it.

Deliberate practice is practice at the edge of ones comfort zone with a mentor who can give you constant immediate feedback on what you are doing to improve your work and the one who practice does it with intense concentration. You also have a specifically designed practice exercise where you practice something specific and you focus on weakness and practice that specific thing over and over again with the goal of improving it. There is probably more to it but its a few of the details of what deliberate practice is.

The father of Deliberate practice Anders Erickson who have studied this for 20+ years or something and haven't found anything like talent but was able to understand how people got good and talent wasn't one of them, Other people who have studied this haven't found it either like the book "talent is overrated" for example which point towards how you really get good is deliberate practice and not talent.

https://www.amazon.com/Talent-Overrated-Separates-World-Class-Performers/dp/1591842948

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MsD3mpvJ3M&t=1349s Anders Erickson talks about that they didn't found any talent in less than 10 minutes in the interview.

Sorry, but you can't just disbelieve science and then that automatically makes it false. You can't just say E=mc2 or Gravity is not true just because one doesn't agree with it. You need to back it up with evidence that supports that it's false and then that would be investigated further by some other scientist probably and if they come up with the same conclusion as you did then it is more likely its false because you actually have evidence to back it up. Neil degrasse Tyson talks about this. Its okay to not like things but that doesn't make them false. (it doesn't change the evidence that supports it or disproves it. That is what you need other evidence for)