Why don't rationalists accept the subjective reality

[InfinitePotential]

Rationalists post Newton: everything follows our human intuition! 

Rationalists post modern physics: these are just useful theories and have nothing to say about the metaphysical nature of reality!

[Faceless]

12 minutes ago, Akim said:

I tried, as far as I can understand they are experiences extracting patterns from other experiences, symbolizing and simplifying them.

I could explain but it takes more than a simple explanation. It takes deep self inquiry. I will try and find a video that expresses what I mean. Give me some time though. I’m new to investigating outside sources ?

Edited April 18, 2018 by Faceless

[InfinitePotential]

1 minute ago, Faceless said:

Yeah understanding/comprehending the limits of thought is a necessity. Thought is limited, finite, fragmented. This need to be understood. 

Word. Honestly, I "think" that's what this path is largely all about. Transcending your thoughts, or at least seeing them for what they are. 

[abrakamowse]

Quote

 

The first thing Bohr said to me was that it would only then be profitable to work with him if I understood that he was a dilettante. The only way I knew to react to this unexpected statement was with a polite smile of disbelief. But evidently Bohr was serious. He explained how he had to approach every new question from a starting point of total ignorance. It is perhaps better to say that Bohr's strength lay in his formidable intuition and insight rather than erudition.

Abraham Pais, in testimony in Niels Bohr

 

Last quote about Niels Bohr, promised.

Maybe I open a separated thread about it.

[sarapr]

11 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

I am fascinated with Niels Bohr, a scientist saying things like that. Of course, now they are disregarded by the science community because it was a long time ago, for sure...

 

Neils Bohr was sth. at least it makes it clear that not all rationalists are closed minded, only the ones in the science community of this era 

[abrakamowse]

@sarapr  I agree. I wish more scientist understood his point of view.

[Akim]

Half of scientists now believe in God or higher power http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/

 

[abrakamowse]

6 minutes ago, Akim said:

Half of scientists now believe in God or higher power http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/

 

That's a good progress, nice.

[Faceless]

20 minutes ago, sarapr said:

Neils Bohr was sth. at least it makes it clear that not all rationalists are closed minded, only the ones in the science community of this era 

Yeah early in his life he was caught in the trap fragmentation. He and Einstein both. They disagreed on things throughout there lives. But they soon saw that they were looking at things from a finite, limited, and partial point of view. They were bound by there own particular map in explanation. They both towards the end of there lives realized this and saw it’s siilyness. And in there realization have influenced others after them. People are becoming more and more aware of the limits of thought these days. 

This is to me a step in a healthy direction. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

56 minutes ago, Akim said:

I don't follow, why thought can't be rational, logical and reasonable even if it runs me

Thought is only as rational as the measure the thinker is free from the compulsion to gain any sense of psychological security, ‘self assertion or self validation.’ 

If thought is influinced by any such movement it inevitably becomes distorted, corrupted, muddled, and therefore irrational. 

 

I will still try and find something that shows what I mean. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

40 minutes ago, InfinitePotential said:

Word. Honestly, I "think" that's what this path is largely all about. Transcending your thoughts, or at least seeing them for what they are. 

Yes?

[abrakamowse]

20 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Thought is only as rational as the measure the thinker is free from the compulsion to gain any sense of psychological security, ‘self assertion or self validation.’ 

I found out that this is what scares us (or our ego) to lose. If we lose that "perspective" the mind goes crazy in the sense that it has nothing to grasp "reality". It's a shock for the ego. That's why I think a slow path to assimilate the new concepts that will substitute old ones is necessary sometimes.

for a sudden enlightenment the person needs to live experiences that open him to that more truth and shocking reality.

It's like jumping to a vacuum, or to the unknown.

But I may be wrong.

[Faceless]

2 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

If we lose that "perspective" the mind goes crazy in the sense that it has nothing to grasp "reality".

Yeah?

That’s the function of the ego. To protect itself. A defensive mechanism. 

It is constantly looking to establish/maintain control. 

[abrakamowse]

@Faceless  Tries to keep control through Fear, fear needs to be accepted or seen, observed as what IS.

[Faceless]

5 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

@Faceless  Tries to keep control through Fear, fear needs to be accepted or seen, observed as what IS.

Exactly man?.. Nature of fear needs to be understood and in that understanding one doesn’t persist in that same old pattern. 

As the zen reference you made before about attention, attention, and more attention?

In this attention the old pattern of thought dies/changes and a new pattern  of thought emerges. 

And maybe if one is lucky there can be no thought at all. Lol 

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Faceless

[abrakamowse]

@Faceless  Cool.

I have to meditate on that and pay constant attention to what IS.

[Faceless]

Just now, abrakamowse said:

@Faceless  Cool.

I have to meditate on that and pay constant attention to what IS.

Yeah by you doing so in itself has changed the pattern since you started all of this inquiry/investigations right. You can see the pattern first hand huh. It’s very cool ? 

[abrakamowse]

1 minute ago, Faceless said:

Yeah by you doing so in itself has changed the pattern since you started all of this inquiry/investigations right. You can see the pattern first hand huh. It’s very cool ? 

Knowledge is coming to me in the right moments. I went to my daughter Aikido class, they have a lot of books and I found one from J. Krishnamurti full of transcripts of his talks about Fear. Really enlightening. 

[sarapr]

@abrakamowse I keep reading your username "Abra kedabra"  why do you do that to me !?

[Faceless]

11 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

Knowledge is coming to me in the right moments. I went to my daughter Aikido class, they have a lot of books and I found one from J. Krishnamurti full of transcripts of his talks about Fear. Really enlightening. 

First off awesome that you have a daughter. And Awesome that she is in aikido. 

Yeah man J. Krishnamurti really gets into things deeply and in a way that you can see it all in yourself. Very experiential. I am slowly but surly looking into more and more of his sharings to find that his work really resonates significantly with my own experiences. I haven’t found anyone who more closely makes sense to me. 

Even his deeper stuff that is not spoken of by imposed imagery. I mean he makes it to where you have to go into personaly to see what is said. He doesn’t give you anything to form a intellectual or conceptual framework. The same as I learned through self inquiry. Not being influenced my writings and such. 

By the way how old is your daughter? 

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Faceless