Leo's new obsession, Holotropic/shamanic breathing(warrning!!) -O2

[eskwire]

1 hour ago, Source_Mystic said:

 

 

The facts are the facts Nahm people can test them for themselves and do their own research then proceed or not based on their own findings,  not mine , not leo's.     Leo doped the ball in my opinion by not doing his due diligence on the mechanism that is causing the experience. Which is oxygen deprivation  not surplus oxygen as he states in his video. The brain and body can not get more than 100% oxygen saturation. Furthermore normal ranges of O2 saturation are  95 to 100%.  

So the very fact that he has not done his research. He has no idea what the mechanism is that is causing this experience and even perpetuates false statements like "It is because you are oxygenating brain so much" (direct quote from video)   Then proceeds to back it on actualize.org as an add hock lazy mans psychotherapy is irresponsible and reckless. The secondary fact that he advocates this as a weekly treatment for a entire year of 52 sessions or 9 hour treatment in one day with short break in between or do it every day for a week is absurd abuse of his power. I have come to expect more form him than that.  There are a lot of people here that are too  impressionable and will see him doing something and think (leo always researches everything if he is doing it if must be fine.)  THIS TIME THAT IS NOT TRUE. He is completely ignorant of the process, and  the mechanism that is causing the effects yet he still backs it for long term use. Even though he does not understand it nor knows if it is safe. 

 

So what have I done.  Well I tried the technique twice and after each time I tested my  O2 levels they went down which proves that that the effects are coming from oxygen deprivation not ( oxygen surplus ) <------Which is not even a real thing.  Oxygen surplus is a falsehood or fallacy. O2 saturation does not go above 100% ever. 

Oxygen deprivation is never good nor helpful it always has negative effects thus I think that is valuable information that others should know as well as test for themselves. 

Secondly I have researched the topic enough in addition to my experiences and symptoms  as well as my measurements of -02 directly after I did the technique to verify the mechanism is in fact  hypoxia. or deficiency of oxygen. 

I am on the side of truth and awareness as well as concern for peoples health.

I am not  a blind follower of  of leo or anyone else I think for myself. I do my own research and take no sides.   I am impartial. Nothing would have made me happier  than to find a new technique to add to my tool box. It just ended up that this was not what was advertised , more so it could be harmful. leo has a responsibility to his community to research practices such as this and in an educated manner explain to his followers what is causing the effect and what the risks are. If he is unwilling to do that he should not advocate there use.  He should have the at the very least the best interest of his community at heart and if he does not that is a huge problem.

I advocate awareness in all things nor do I expect people to blindly believe me.   I expect them to do there own research and then make a informed educated choice after they have come to there own conclusion.  Not mine and not leo's.  If what I am saying is the true.  It is testable and verifiable. If what I am saying is true,  what leo is saying is false. So which  is the mechanism that are causing the effects ?  Is it over oxygenated blood or O2 deprivation. It can not be both.  If leo is wrong you should be evaluating more than just if you should do this technique. You should be asking your self what kind of person advocates the use of something that they do not even understand and could cause harm.  Through all of leos hundreds of talks about truth and  knowledge I though he was above  such a error. In this matter he has allied himself with ignorance or laziness and that is dangerous. More over he has brought that danger to your doorstep because of his influence on this community. I have to say  I am rather disappointed Leo.    

All I am asking is you look into this practice deeper if you have a smart phone that can test spO2 test it directly after your breathing session.   From there you can study effects of O2 deprivation. If you understand the risks and what you are actually doing and what mechanism that  is actually being utilized to get the effects and  you still want to take the risk. That is completely up to you. At that point I have done my job and brought awareness to this matter.

I can tell you I will never use this technique myself again. 

"By using this technique you are agreeing that I am not legally responsible for any physical or psychological harm that you may cause yourself "..... -leo  Gura  direct quote from video.  I am glad he is looking out for himself.

Nahm I have lost any respect I once had  for you because of this careless comment.   Everyone on this forum should be searching for the truth in all things. Not taking sides but if I must take a side I take the side of truth , knowledge and the fact that I do so out of genuine concern for others well-being  not just for the sake of being  right.

Yes, that particular statement was incorrect, but that does not mean the technique is ineffective and too dangerous for a lot of us to use. Your slight dip in saturation for a short period of time is not a dealbreaker. I'm rather unmoved by using one measure in such a complicated system. 

Your concern for due diligence is understandable. I have felt this way about the channel and the forum in the past - when I see highly disturbed people with no IRL support listening to nihilism and doing psychedelics. I fear for their physical safety.

That said, it is also a trap of our medical system to be too conservative and not advocate something that could be deeply useful out of fear. Also, you will notice that many pharmaceuticals have outrageous, damaging side effects, including death. People take them anyway. Because the search for improvement has risk. 

Life is not so tidy. While I share your sentiments in some ways, I am at peace with this.

PS The technique worked exactly as I hoped and I got the info to do it at a perfect time for me. For me, this worked out. I am pleased and his followers are working out the specifics of the mechanisms amongst themselves. 

He did say something specific that was incorrect. What do you think would rectify the situation?

[moon777light]

so running isnt good for you either since it your o2/co2 levels are out of balance? swimming too?

[Source_Mystic]

My problem is what the mechanism is

The more research I do the more I see this as dangerous especially as a regular or extended practice. 

I keep running into-things like this

"Binding of oxygen to hemoglobin

Blood is not a wondrous fluid with magical properties. Instead blood is a transport fluid. It transports oxygen, electrolytes, proteins, hormones, fats and sugars to tissues, and removes waste products of metabolism, hormones, products of metabolisms, etc away from tissues. Oxygen is transported by blood from the lungs where it enters the body. However oxygen is very poorly soluble in blood, and blood contains negligible amounts of dissolved oxygen. Practically all oxygen in blood is chemically bound to hemoglobin inside red blood cells. But the chemical binding of oxygen with hemoglobin is directly affected by the acidity and alkalinity of blood (i.e. the pH of blood).

Hyperventilation causes loss of carbon dioxide from the body, causing the pH of blood to increase and become more alkaline. When blood is more alkaline, hemoglobin binds more tightly with oxygen. Oxygen bound to hemoglobin within red blood cells does nothing, because binding of oxygen to hemoglobin within red blood cells is no more than the body's method of transporting oxygen to the capillaries within the tissues of the body. Within the capillaries of the tissues of the body, the chemical bond between oxygen and hemoglobin is weak enough to allow oxygen to leave the blood and diffuse into the cells surrounding the capillaries, so providing oxygen for the vital, energy-generating chemical processes within the cells forming the tissues of the body. But when hyperventilation causes oxygen to bind more tightly to hemoglobin, less oxygen is released to diffuse into the tissues surrounding the capillaries. The oxyhemoglobin saturation curve demonstrates this effect, showing that hemoglobin binds oxygen more tightly during hyperventilation (Figure 7). This is why hyperventilation can cause less oxygen to enter the tissues of the body from the capillaries, so resulting in hypoxia of the cells outside the blood vessels, even though the blood contains more than sufficient oxygen.

Hyperventilation causes cerebral hypoxia

But does hyperventilation cause cerebral hypoxia? Hyperventilation has profound effects on the transport and delivery of oxygen to the tissues of the body. Hyperventilation reduces the cerebral blood flow, and to make matters worse, hyperventilation also causes oxygen to bind more tightly with hemoglobin. Both factors combine to reduce the availability of oxygen to the tissues of the brain, and can even cause cerebral hypoxia. Animal studies reveal that extreme hyperventilation does indeed cause cerebral hypoxia (Clausen 2004, Sugioka 1960). The tragic fatal effects of relative hyperventilation in humans with severe chronic obstructive airway disease, also reveals that hyperventilation in humans can result in cerebral hypoxia severe enough to cause actual brain damage and brain death (Kilburn 1966, Rotheram 1964). Furthermore, hyperventilation has also been implicated as one of the potential causes of postoperative cognitive dysfunction.

Hyperventilation-induced frontal lobe failure

This last remark brings us to the effects of hyperventilation on conscious mental function. These were discussed earlier in this chapter and consist of manifestations such as: disturbed mentation, impaired concentration, poor memory, and hallucinations. Feelings of depersonalization are also common, as hyperventilating persons often describe sensations of unreality, or feeling everything is confused and dream-like. Many of these conscious mental experiences and manifestations are similar to those of cerebral hypoxia (see Chapter 4). And during extreme degrees of hyperventilation, the degree of cerebral hypoxia may be sufficient to cause loss of consciousness. But is this true for lesser degrees of hyperventilation?"

The effect is not the problem the mechanism that is causing the effect is.  It is depriving you brain of oxygen  for however long you are doing it.

Personalty that is all I need to know.  Healthy brain = 100% O2  > Unhealthy brain =  lack of O2 ...... Any questions ?

On some level this is doing brain damage.

As for what leo can do. He should take down the video correct the fallacy that this practice mechanism is that causing the effect is  "because you are oxygenating brain so much"  He needs to Do the research and be honest and transparent about the cause of the effect.  He needs to take more responsibility for what he puts out if it has the possibility to harm anyone. He also needs to understand  and illustrate  What he is doing better.  As if this has not shown me anything else is that in this instance he was lazy and did not do the research he should have before he backed this practice. 

He sure put that disclaimer in there though to protect his ass. 

What it comes down to is the mechanism for this is it is depriving you brain body and organs of oxygen thus creating all the effects because your starved brain can not function normally ask any dr if hypoxia is good for you in any amount. Then compound that damage with regular use. This Whole thing seems insane and the way it is packaged and as a treatment is deceptive. Every time I go looking on the internet I get all the positive testimonials but you know what I do not get anny real explanation on what and how this is occurring .

Further more if I came up to you on the street and said  "I am going to deprive you brain and body of oxygen for 20 minuets to 3 hours and you will trip  balls.  Would your response  be  "Ya lets do that,  lets do lots of that , on a regular basses  for 9 hours at a time or once a week or once every day. Sounds good to me,  what the fuck do I need my brain for anyway." No your response would be  "are you out of you fucken mind! " 

I have meditated for years in a lot of different styles none of them cause damage.

If people really want to hallucinate though extended oxygen deprivation no matter the cost or damage done to their body or brain maybe they do not need it anyway. 

 

I will no longer call this practice  holotropic/shamanic breathing it will now be  Extended Oxygen Deprivation because lets call a rose a rose.  let's dispense with the new age bullshit and be completely transparent as to what this is and  what mechanism causes it. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Source_Mystic

[Nahm]

@Source_Mystic Another projection. It is yours, the ‘respect for me’ issue, facts, etc. I’m with you on the finding out for one’s self though. Good stuff. 

[Galyna]

Well, if there is no brain, how can we  damage one? LOL.

[eskwire]

3 hours ago, Source_Mystic said:

My problem is what the mechanism is

The more research I do the more I see this as dangerous especially as a regular or extended practice. 

I keep running into-things like this

"Binding of oxygen to hemoglobin

Blood is not a wondrous fluid with magical properties. Instead blood is a transport fluid. It transports oxygen, electrolytes, proteins, hormones, fats and sugars to tissues, and removes waste products of metabolism, hormones, products of metabolisms, etc away from tissues. Oxygen is transported by blood from the lungs where it enters the body. However oxygen is very poorly soluble in blood, and blood contains negligible amounts of dissolved oxygen. Practically all oxygen in blood is chemically bound to hemoglobin inside red blood cells. But the chemical binding of oxygen with hemoglobin is directly affected by the acidity and alkalinity of blood (i.e. the pH of blood).

Hyperventilation causes loss of carbon dioxide from the body, causing the pH of blood to increase and become more alkaline. When blood is more alkaline, hemoglobin binds more tightly with oxygen. Oxygen bound to hemoglobin within red blood cells does nothing, because binding of oxygen to hemoglobin within red blood cells is no more than the body's method of transporting oxygen to the capillaries within the tissues of the body. Within the capillaries of the tissues of the body, the chemical bond between oxygen and hemoglobin is weak enough to allow oxygen to leave the blood and diffuse into the cells surrounding the capillaries, so providing oxygen for the vital, energy-generating chemical processes within the cells forming the tissues of the body. But when hyperventilation causes oxygen to bind more tightly to hemoglobin, less oxygen is released to diffuse into the tissues surrounding the capillaries. The oxyhemoglobin saturation curve demonstrates this effect, showing that hemoglobin binds oxygen more tightly during hyperventilation (Figure 7). This is why hyperventilation can cause less oxygen to enter the tissues of the body from the capillaries, so resulting in hypoxia of the cells outside the blood vessels, even though the blood contains more than sufficient oxygen.

Hyperventilation causes cerebral hypoxia

But does hyperventilation cause cerebral hypoxia? Hyperventilation has profound effects on the transport and delivery of oxygen to the tissues of the body. Hyperventilation reduces the cerebral blood flow, and to make matters worse, hyperventilation also causes oxygen to bind more tightly with hemoglobin. Both factors combine to reduce the availability of oxygen to the tissues of the brain, and can even cause cerebral hypoxia. Animal studies reveal that extreme hyperventilation does indeed cause cerebral hypoxia (Clausen 2004, Sugioka 1960). The tragic fatal effects of relative hyperventilation in humans with severe chronic obstructive airway disease, also reveals that hyperventilation in humans can result in cerebral hypoxia severe enough to cause actual brain damage and brain death (Kilburn 1966, Rotheram 1964). Furthermore, hyperventilation has also been implicated as one of the potential causes of postoperative cognitive dysfunction.

Hyperventilation-induced frontal lobe failure

This last remark brings us to the effects of hyperventilation on conscious mental function. These were discussed earlier in this chapter and consist of manifestations such as: disturbed mentation, impaired concentration, poor memory, and hallucinations. Feelings of depersonalization are also common, as hyperventilating persons often describe sensations of unreality, or feeling everything is confused and dream-like. Many of these conscious mental experiences and manifestations are similar to those of cerebral hypoxia (see Chapter 4). And during extreme degrees of hyperventilation, the degree of cerebral hypoxia may be sufficient to cause loss of consciousness. But is this true for lesser degrees of hyperventilation?"

The effect is not the problem the mechanism that is causing the effect is.  It is depriving you brain of oxygen  for however long you are doing it.

Personalty that is all I need to know.  Healthy brain = 100% O2  > Unhealthy brain =  lack of O2 ...... Any questions ?

On some level this is doing brain damage.

As for what leo can do. He needs to take more responsibility for what he puts out if it has the possibility to harm anyone. He also needs to understand  and illustrate  what he is doing better.  As if this has not shown me anything else is that in this instance he was lazy and did not do the research he should have before he backed this practice. 

He sure put that disclaimer in there though to protect his ass. 

What it comes down to is the mechanism for this is it is depriving you brain body and organs of oxygen thus creating all the effects because your starved brain can not function normally ask any dr if hypoxia is good for you in any amount. Then compound that damage with regular use. This Whole thing seems insane and the way it is packaged and as a treatment is deceptive. Every time I go looking on the internet I get all the positive testimonials but you know what I do not get anny real explanation on what and how this is occurring .

Further more if I came up to you on the street and said  "I am going to deprive you brain and body of oxygen for 20 minuets to 3 hours and you will trip  balls.  Would your response  be  "Ya lets do that,  lets do lots of that , on a regular basses  for 9 hours at a time or once a week or once every day. Sounds good to me,  what the fuck do I need my brain for anyway." No your response would be  "are you out of you fucken mind! " 

I have meditated for years in a lot of different styles none of them cause damage.

If people really want to hallucinate though extended oxygen deprivation no matter the cost or damage done to their body or brain maybe they do not need it anyway. 

 

I will no longer call this practice  holotropic/shamanic breathing it will now be  Extended Oxygen Deprivation because lets call a rose a rose.  let's dispense with the new age bullshit and be completely transparent as to what this is and how it does it.

 

 

 

 

 

"The dose makes the poison."

[Source_Mystic]

1 hour ago, eskwire said:

"The dose makes the poison."

What does of oxygen deprivation is safe ?   How much Damage does it do per session of 30 minuets?  How a bout a hour an hour?  How about three ? or nine hours? What is the collective damage being done if someone does this 52 times in a year as your ignorant guru recommends .  Let me be clear I keep using the term ignorant until he educates himself adequately on the subject. Because ignorance in the context I am using is  lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular. Which apples to leo at the moment and will until the time  the looks at the facts understands the topic instead of talking around it or clinging on to self-delusion and defense  instead of the concrete reality of the matter at hand. 

His video should be taken down he should do the research  correct the fallacy that the  mechanism is that causing the effect is  "because you are oxygenating brain so much"  He needs to do the research and be honest and transparent about the cause of the effect. If he does not he is creating falsehoods that misdirecting  and misinforming  his community. If he can not do this  he is unfit to teach anything because he can not admit he is wrong even when he is that is not a enlightened view or outlook.

What I expect is complete and honest educated transparency  not errors,  not fallacy's not defenses.  I want him to tell you to your face what is causing this effect then I want him to tell you that he considers (extended oxygen deprivation ) aka  Holotropic/shamanic breathing safe. Then I want him to take a comprehensive I.Q. and cognitive test.  Next  I want him to do a trial of what he is prescribing to his followers of first three, 3 hour sessions with a small break in between testing his spO2  (oxygen saturation percentile levels) immediately after teach of those  three hours blocks .  That will be a total of nine hours in one day. That is what he is recommending  is safe for all of you in his video so he should have no problem doing that . Then I want him to do this practice for one year at least once a week that is 52 sessions of three hours. finally I want him to take that same I.Q  and cognitive aptitude test. If after all that he has the same cognitive ability that he had on the first test he can say that is is safe to do these practices. Until he does all of this he is just ignorant coward that can not do what he is recommending for you.  That will not test his theory's or research the mechanism that is causing the effect. If he can not even test his O2 saturation and correct his errors he is no longer fit to teach anyone.  because his teachings are no longer based on facts or truth they are based on bias and ignorance.

The mere fact that he has not responded  to me in four days when I posted a privet message  so we could talk about this also is disturbing. That left me no other option than to come on the forms and inform all of you.  Leaders do not get to avoid or defer responsibility  they actually have more not less.  leo puts himself off like this wise person that is beyond reproach  that always does his research. He talks about truth and knowledge and not being self deceived or mislead he talks a good game. Now I  am calling him on it.  He has been on here all day.   I have  not seen once adress  address the problem like a man or talk about this he avoids the problem like a child. 

If he can not admit that he was in error and correct himself and stand for the principals that he shows you in all his videos of what use is this forum.  When it shows nothing but the distorted  illusion of a man that never existed in the first place.

If that is the case and you still want to follow him I pity you. 

 leo go read , go research , go test your spO2 levels correct the  fallacy in your video and be transparent and honest with what you find. Make your decision out of an educated understanding  not ignorance of a subject. Ignorance  is not a excuse especially for you.

If you can not do that then stand up and tell all of your followers that it is fine to be lazy and not do the work or research or understand truth it is fine to see things the way you want to and ignore facts.  Show them who you are leo are you the illusion of a man of principal,  or are you actually a man of principal that made a mistake and can admit it. 

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Source_Mystic

[eskwire]

@Source_Mystic I don't know what dose of lowered O2 is a poison for x duration, but neither do you. You are insistent on 100 at all times and that is silly. It drops during exercise. Do you want everyone to stop exercising, too?

Tell you what. I have a Masters of Public Health. All that means is I have some literacy, resources, and training that would help in researching this topic. 

If you promise to listen to me and not just repeat the same 3 points, I will make it my personal duty to research this topic as thoroughly as I can this week and share my findings - whatever they may be - unbiased as I can - with the community.

Please, take a breath. ? It will be ok.

[Source_Mystic]

53 minutes ago, eskwire said:

@Source_Mystic I don't know what dose of lowered O2 is a poison for x duration, but neither do you. You are insistent on 100 at all times and that is silly. It drops during exercise. Do you want everyone to stop exercising, too?

Tell you what. I have a Masters of Public Health. All that means is I have some literacy, resources, and training that would help in researching this topic. 

If you promise to listen to me and not just repeat the same 3 points, I will make it my personal duty to research this topic as thoroughly as I can this week and share my findings - whatever they may be - unbiased as I can - with the community.

Please, take a breath. ? It will be ok.

Sure that is fair. Make  sure you study hyperventlation as well since that is what we are really talking about prolonged hyperventlation and is effects. 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Source_Mystic

[Truth Addict]

@Source_Mystic

I'm with you. But I still have to do some research, then I might try that technique again.

@moon777light

Running and swimming etc... are exercises, you can't exercise too much or too hard or you're gonna kill yourself, this is a physiological limitation of having a body. Breathwork is an intense exercise for the whole body when it doesn't need to. Nobody wants to mess with their physiology.

[Jamie Universe]

6 hours ago, eskwire said:

PS The technique worked exactly as I hoped and I got the info to do it at a perfect time for me. For me, this worked out. I am pleased and his followers are working out the specifics of the mechanisms amongst themselves. 

Anyone else think we should get a mega-thread at this point?

[Source_Mystic]

My premise comes from the fact that it is depriving your brain to the point it can no longer function I can not imagine this is good for you. Espicaly with repeated sessions. Or for preloned periods of time. 

And one of my biggest problems is leos fallacy and non transparency as to what is causing the effect. He should give people the full and nonbias facts so they can make informed decisions. But how can they when he refuses to.  

Edited April 16, 2018 by Source_Mystic

[moon777light]

i wouldnt do the sessions that are 1.5+ hours, because that can be dangerous, especially 3 hours, but 15-40 is safe, from what ive researched. Ive read into it as much as i could and could not find anything rly negative. Maybe i am wrong, so ill keep track of peoples experiences here and my own, which i keep to a short amount of time (15 min)

[Source_Mystic]

26 minutes ago, Jamie Universe said:

Anyone else think we should get a mega-thread at this point?

Good luck with that I am encouraging others to do the research he refuses to. Also discoraging the practice altogether ..... as well as calling Leo out on several levels. I kind of doubt  this thread will get equal treatment with his mega thread nor do I care if it does. All I care about is awarness of this and that people get full disclosure to what this exactly is.  So they can make a informed decision. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Source_Mystic

[Truth]

lol, all jokes aside, I actually appreciate your perspective @Source_Mystic Nice to see someone doing their research and questioning, but for me personally, I know my body pretty good, and it's clear to me if I decide to go on a Super Size Me McDonald's Diet, it's pretty clear that that's gonna have some negative consequences, if I decide to do some extreme sports it's clear that I could crack my head open. My point is there's always risks and I agree yes people should be aware of the risks, but some people can use that as an excuse to not do anything. 

As Leo mentioned in the video if you already have ailments it's probably best to stay away, just as if you had an oxygen problem and you decided to climb Mount Everest, you probably don't want to climb Mount Everest, just as if you had a problem with balance you probably don't want to bomb a hill on a skateboard. I get your disgusted with "Leo's lack of precaution and scientific facts" but sometimes truth can be a distraction from growth, which is critical to why I'm even alive and is something I value just as much as truth. 

Practically speaking, for the people who try it will quickly realize that you can stop any time you feel like it's too much, it's a interesting dynamic you have to balance here, it takes wisdom from you to know how much is too much and knowing your limits/weaknesses, that's something Leo can't and will never be able to teach you. Only you can know that. and I feel Leo already made this point clear, he just wasn't explicit with it as you are, which is why I really appreciate your post, so thanks for the information. 

 

[Source_Mystic]

@Truth Thank  you,  I know alot of people here are just  ingnoring what I am saying

 What they do not undestand is that  genuinely give a shit. If Leo is going to make this it his pet project great I expect him to at the very least do his due diligence and give the facts in a clear ,concise and transparent manner. So people can make a informed decision. Based on real facts not I do not know what causes the effects ? That is a lazy bullshit excuse especially coming from Leo.  I expect him to live up to all those principals he talks about. 

[Truth]

@Source_Mystic I actually 100% agree with you, but I also think that one should hold "real facts" lightly, because I think they can become antagonistic to a technique that could have the potential to really grow someone (like me).

I admire your passion for this post and I hope you can forgive Leo for his lack of explication about how one should go about being made aware of this technique.     

Edited April 16, 2018 by Truth

[Charlotte]

@Source_Mystic  Would the same apply to Kundalini yoga? Say... with the breath of fire? 

By the way I totally agree with your original op, I also did my own research and decided against the technique. It's not for me personally but I wish everybody well who decide to use it 

♥️

[Leo Gura]

Why is it Leo's obession?

Lol

You guys really gotta look into this thing called projection.

[Source_Mystic]

 You should look into deflection Leo. 

Do not bother responding as if you read my messages you can see every thing I would have said to you regarding this pracice.  

I am done  ......   Farewell  everyone I hope you stay in good health. And research things for yourself from now on.  

Edited April 16, 2018 by Source_Mystic