Leo's new obsession, Holotropic/shamanic breathing(warrning!!) -O2

[Source_Mystic]

 I sent a message leo  he has not read it or responded in in two days so I am bringing  this to the community's attention

Well I tried this twice for 20 minuets. I tested  spO2 level with my s7 smart phone and it was below 95 percent that is not good.  My levels never go below 95 as I test them every day as part of my daily routine. Also the symptoms of numbness and pins and nettles  in the extremity's as well as in the head are signs of hypoxica  or lack of o2 getting to the brain. If you commit to this practice you could be doing permanent brain damage every time. As I believe the effects  are from lack of oxygen from my experience and test as well as my limited research.   Further more O2 SATURATION DOES NOT GO ABOVE 100%.   And leo's premise that you are getting  more oxygen is I believe is incorrect.  If you do your research you can see this for yourself.  I am all for breakthrough techniques but Not at the expense of the health or damage to your physical brain.  Please before you commit to this practice learn what it is doing to your brain and the mechanisms that are causing the effect.

Let me be clear this is not a direct attack on leo I believe he is in error and I welcome him to do his own research into what I am saying just as I am asking you  for your own safety.

Below is a extract from an  article by Joe miller if what he says is true you should do more research and test you 02/spo2  saturation yourself  then make a informed choice based on all your findings as to whether (Holtropic/aka  leo's "shamanic breathing) is right for you.

 

"You might think the problem is too much oxygen. But in healthy people arterial blood leaving the lungs is already nearly fully saturated with oxygen, even during quiet breathing. In other words, you can’t take in too much oxygen.

Rather, the problem with hyperventilation comes from blowing off too much carbon dioxide. In normal breathing, small amounts of incoming air are mixed with a much larger volume of air remaining within the alveoli (the air sacs in the lungs where gas exchange with the blood takes place). This has the effect of maintaining an internal atmosphere within the lungs that contains a much higher percentage of CO2 than does the air outside (carbon dioxide makes up only a very small percentage of atmospheric air). CO2 levels in the bloodstream closely reflect the composition of this internal atmosphere, so that during hyperventilation, as more carbon dioxide is expelled from the alveoli, CO2 levels in the blood also fall.

We tend to see CO2 as a waste product, something to be disposed of. But in fact we need to keep  CO2 in the blood within a certain range, because it plays an important role in maintaining blood pH. As CO2 levels drop during hyperventilation, the result is a higher, or more alkaline, pH.

Because of this rise in blood pH, hyperventilation has an effect that might at first seem paradoxical—by over breathing, we actually reduce the amount of oxygen getting to the brain, a situation termed cerebral hypoxia.

This became an issue during World War II. Hyperventilating military pilots tended to become confused and disoriented. Researchers studying conscientious objectors in the laboratory were able to confirm that hyperventilation led to a reduction in blood flow to the brain, which had long been suspected. Their supposition was this was due to constriction of cerebral blood vessels. This has subsequently been shown to be the case, and although the exact mechanism is still debated, it’s clear that a rise in blood pH  triggers arterial constriction.

What’s worse is that when blood becomes more alkaline, hemoglobin (the molecule that transports oxygen in the red blood cells) tends to hold on more tightly to oxygen. This makes sense in the context of allocating oxygen to the tissues that need it most: metabolically active tissues that have consumed a lot of oxygen and need to replenish it will have also produced a lot of CO2. This creates a more acidic local environment, which in turn causes hemoglobin to release more oxygen. The reverse is true when conditions are more alkaline; tissues don’t get as much oxygen, because hemoglobin hangs on to it.

Thus, the brain gets hit with a double whammy during hyperventilation—less blood flow, plus less oxygen being released from the blood."

 

I have been away from the Forums  as my path has changed dramatically and does not leave much time for this forum.    I still drop by from time to time and I hope you are all well , I  wish nothing but the best for you all of you.  Which is why I have written this post.  Now that I have brought awareness to this practice and its possible dangers I leave the rest up to you.  Do your research and stay safe.  I am not going back to my cave to do my work please do not expect me to respond as my withdraw from this forum is deliberate so I have more time to do what needs to be done on my path.  After I come to my conclusions in my work if any of it translates to things I may share with others,  I will but I am no where near that yet.  My new journey is just beginning. Hallucinogens have nothing to do with it. 

Farewell and stay safe 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Source_Mystic

[eskwire]

@Source_Mystic What is your reading now?

Edited April 14, 2018 by eskwire

[NoSelfSelf]

Are you a doctor or something?

[Source_Mystic]

6 hours ago, eskwire said:

@Source_Mystic What was your reading today?

 

 

100% just took it ... If you have a smart phone S7 or above you can test yourself with your phone.  I can not speak to other phones I use the Samsung health app to test SpO2 , heart rate  , caffeine intake, water intake.  It records walking and running as well as caloric intake. If you do all this it gives you a weekly report and with common sense you can easily  make adjustments that improve overall health.  SpO2 Levels which are O2 saturation in the blood. Mine fluctuates between 95% and 100% most days not even that much I say between 97% and 100% most of the time that is normal. You can not over oxygenate blood if this was the mechanism you could just hook yourself  up to a O2 tank and increase amount of pure oxygen and you would hypothetically get the same effect if the mechanism was increased O2. Please do not do this  ether as I am just using that as a example not a practice that someone should do.  Numbness tingeing hands with drawing up and cramping are all signs of hypoxia or lack of O2. 

Note my SpO2 has never gone below 95 ever until I took it directly after the practice of  Holotropic/shamanic breathing 93% and 92% that was after 20 minuets both times and that does not sound like much but if I had gone longer I am sure it would have spiked down at a faster rate. depriveing my body and brain of even more oxygen.   So for me this practice is not viable. I got no lasting effects except a really nasty head ache pins  and needles and the beginning of numbness in my extremity's as well.  The mechanism that seems to be responsible for the experience seems to be O2 deprivation  or hopioxa as my testing confirms this as well as the limited amount of research I have done. I need no further proof.

All I am asking others to do is do your research,  use the tools at your disposal to make a educated and responsible decision. Don't take my word for it for that matter do not take leo's ether go seek out the facts for yourself and find the truth. My job was only to bring awareness to the facts and let you do further research and find the truth for yourself.  I am not here to argue or put anyone down. Now I am going back to my work.

I have brought awareness to this issue and will comment on it no longer. 

I hope you are all well  and moving  forward in you search for enlightenment and self actualization good luck.

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Source_Mystic

[sholomar]

Everything the OP said is accurate.. breathing exercises don't accomplish anything particularly useful in most people.. the body regulates pH by breathing, you want a certain level of CO2 in the blood because without CO2 oxygen levels paradoxically go down. Likewise alkaline diets are mostly bunk because you don't alkalize your body through diet... if anything the diet is healthy because it gets rid of refined carbs and processed garbage like frozen pizza and Hot Pockets. The body keeps it's pH in check by breathing... like how when CO2 escapes soda it's pH rises, the body regulates pH through CO2 levels. There are some people who could possibly suffer from chronic hyperventilation syndrome, however. It would effect a pretty small percentage of the population. 

However, having your body oxygen levels drop a bit is not the end of the world. Mine will drop into the low 90% range while I sit around watching TV.  People with sleep apnea will drop down to the 50% range at night in spurts. If anything buy a monitor that will log your oxygen levels while you sleep. Some people have sleep apnea they don't know they have that can negatively effect their life. 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2018 by sholomar

[moon777light]

how do you explain wim hof? He mastered the art of hyperventilation breathing and look at him, his body is fighting endotoxins, withstanding cold, etc. PLus doesnt he do it everyday, whereas here leo is asking just once weekly. He personally teaches hundreds of students, thousands have done his technique from online videos and i never seen anyone complain about beeing bad for your health in long run. 

[eskwire]

Well! I understand you are doing a mic drop and won't necessarily read this but some points:

You don't know how low it would dip at 30 minutes because you did 20 minutes. He recommended 30. We can't assume it would be drastically lower than that. 

We don't know that an oxygen saturation level at slightly lower than normal range for such a short period of time would have a deleterious effect - one that outweighs the potentially positive emotional effects, which in turn have physical effects. The system is too complicated to use only one measure. 

It does seem the statement in the video about being extra saturated with oxygen could be incorrect.

It did work exactly as described and desired for me, so I am willing to take the risk.

An oxygen saturation measurement tool and some more information on experiments/lifestyles incorporating dips in oxygen saturation could be beneficial, along with many other considerations. 

 

[Moreira]

Its usual strategy of fake shamans or cult leaders to convince their disciples to rituals of oxigen deprivation and hot temperatures like saunas to make them allucinate. Somo people has died for this negligences.

[sholomar]

7 minutes ago, moon777light said:

how do you explain wim hof? He mastered the art of hyperventilation breathing and look at him, his body is fighting endotoxins, withstanding cold, etc. PLus doesnt he do it everyday, whereas here leo is asking just once weekly. He personally teaches hundreds of students, thousands have done his technique from online videos and i never seen anyone complain about beeing bad for your health in long run. 

That is interesting. I admit to not having researched hyperventilation breathing and will look into it out of sheer curiosity. I always look to expand my knowledge base.  I would say that people should work on the core material first though before they try looking into things like this or psychedelics.  The mental work.. mindfulness, visualization, acceptance, affirmations, thought monitoring.. these are the core things that produce results and should come first.. if you feel like you've reached a point in your life where you've nailed all these things down, then perhaps expand outward and try other avenues. 

Honestly I have a goal this year of listening to every single video Leo has made so naturally this video would be included. I'm starting at the oldest first though so it will take awhile to get to this one. 

Edited April 14, 2018 by sholomar

[eskwire]

1 minute ago, sholomar said:

That is interesting. I admit to not having researched hyperventilation breathing and will look into it out of sheer curiosity. I always look to expand my knowledge base.  I would say that people should work on the core material first though before they try looking into things like this or psychedelics.  The mental work.. mindfulness, visualization, acceptance, affirmations, thought monitoring.. these are the core things that produce results and should come first.. if you feel like you've reached a point in your life where you've nailed all these things down, then perhaps expand outward and try other avenues. 

That's not necessarily true. Who are you to say what techniques should come first for everyone? Vipassana meditation retreats teach your mind through the body, for example. Working with the body has had the biggest impacts for me and I wish I had done them first.

[sholomar]

4 minutes ago, eskwire said:

That's not necessarily true. Who are you to say what techniques should come first for everyone? Vipassana meditation retreats teach your mind through the body, for example. Working with the body has had the biggest impacts for me and I wish I had done them first.

Interesting. I've been meaning to plan to attend one. I appreciate your input.  Also I just realized something as I sit here making my first posts... trying to give people advice is a trap.. it's my ego trying to get juice out of giving advice.. I made a rule I was going to stay off reddit and other forums because they are time wasters. Though this forum is arguably the most useful one I've ever visited, spending too much time posting when I have such a long way to go in my own journey is just a trap.. so I've instituted a no forums rule to include this forum for now. I'll be back when I've accomplished some of my goals. Take care! 

Edited April 14, 2018 by sholomar

[eskwire]

7 minutes ago, sholomar said:

Interesting. I've been meaning to plan to attend one. I appreciate your input.  Also I just realized something as I sit here making my first posts... trying to give people advice is a trap.. it's my ego trying to get juice out of giving advice.. I made a rule I was going to stay off reddit and other forums because they are time wasters. Though this forum is arguably the most useful one I've ever visited, spending too much time posting when I have such a long way to go in my own journey is just a trap.. so I've instituted a no forums rule to include this forum for now. I'll be back when I've accomplished some of my goals. Take care! 

That is an ego trap. You can be here without giving advice right away - maybe listen and ask questions first.

[moon777light]

@Moreira but saunas actually have clinical proven results to help with many diseases and prevent depression...

also i feel like leo doesnt release something/new technique unless hes done it for a substantial amount of time and if its given him great benefits. the emotional purging it gives you is worth it. Theres no denying that the bursts of crying and laughter and hysterical behavior have something to do with it.

Edited April 14, 2018 by moon777light

[egoless]

Did anyone do research on wimhof method? Is it healthier?

[SoothedByRain]

I'm a noob. I'll put that upfront.

The Wim Hof method puts the body in a fight or flight response. Think of how your senses would work whilst running from a bear. Like a Lizard. Highly focused.

I've been doing the Wim Hof method everyday this week and then either sitting or doing some form of walking meditation. Focusing on breath, vision and my feet. (Do Nothing Method)

It shuts down your brain noise, all the chatter and leaves you with nothing but clear laser vision and complete ability to focus. I plan on doing a Metronome Access Concentration session asap after doing a short WH breathing session and seeing how much I improve on my usual ability to concentrate.

I'll leave these two video links below, in order. Try it out for yourself and you'll see what I mean by Reptilian Focus.

Intense viper focus. Anyone else been doing the WH Method?

I'm a noob. I'll put that at the end. 

Edited April 15, 2018 by SoothedByRain

[SoothedByRain]

6 minutes ago, SoothedByRain said:

I'm a noob. I'll put that upfront.

The Wim Hof method puts the body in a fight or flight response. Think of how your senses would work whilst running from a bear. Like a Lizard. Highly focused.

I've been doing the Wim Hof method everyday this week and then either sitting or doing some form of walking meditation. Focusing on breath, vision and my feet. (Do Nothing Method)

It shuts down your brain noise, all the chatter and leaves you with nothing but clear laser vision and complete ability to focus. I plan on doing a Metronome Access Concentration session asap after doing a short WH breathing session and seeing how much I improve on my usual ability to concentrate.

I'll leave these two video links below, in order. Try it out for yourself and you'll see what I mean by Reptilian Focus.

Intense viper focus. Anyone else been doing the WH Method?

I'm a noob. I'll put that at the end. 

"What is the real essence of life. You cannot find it in the books. You are the book. You gotta open up and begin to read and be conscious of what you have inside." —Wim Hof

[Nahm]

@SoothedByRain Great post. Welcome to the forum. 

[Guest Quanty]

Agree in a way with the poster.

Hyperventilating will not come close to Nirvana breathing (Staying in the blowing out the breath, using 3-4 breath per minute per example) in therms of Oxygen levels in the body It a scale of 1 to a 10+ at least. 1 being hyperventilating, 10+ being nirvana.

Breathing fast is accumulating to much carbon dioxide in the body and is not worth it. 

 

Warning: This cannot be proven scientifically, because in the blood sample the results will be backwards.

 

 

 

<3

 

[Nahm]

@Source_Mystic Grosse projection. 

[Source_Mystic]

 

6 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Source_Mystic Grosse projection. 

 

The facts are the facts Nahm people can test them for themselves and do their own research then proceed or not based on their own findings,  not mine , not leo's.     Leo doped the ball in my opinion by not doing his due diligence on the mechanism that is causing the experience. Which is oxygen deprivation  not surplus oxygen as he states in his video. The brain and body can not get more than 100% oxygen saturation. Furthermore normal ranges of O2 saturation are  95 to 100%.  

So the very fact that he has not done his research. He has no idea what the mechanism is that is causing this experience and even perpetuates false statements like "It is because you are oxygenating brain so much" (direct quote from video)   Then proceeds to back it on actualize.org as an add hock lazy mans psychotherapy is irresponsible and reckless. The secondary fact that he advocates this as a weekly treatment for a entire year of 52 sessions or 9 hour treatment in one day with short break in between or do it every day for a week is absurd abuse of his power. I have come to expect more form him than that.  There are a lot of people here that are too  impressionable and will see him doing something and think (leo always researches everything if he is doing it if must be fine.)  THIS TIME THAT IS NOT TRUE. He is completely ignorant of the process, and  the mechanism that is causing the effects yet he still backs it for long term use. Even though he does not understand it nor knows if it is safe. 

 

So what have I done.  Well I tried the technique twice and after each time I tested my  O2 levels they went down which proves that that the effects are coming from oxygen deprivation not ( oxygen surplus ) <------Which is not even a real thing.  Oxygen surplus is a falsehood or fallacy. O2 saturation does not go above 100% ever. 

Oxygen deprivation is never good nor helpful it always has negative effects thus I think that is valuable information that others should know as well as test for themselves. 

Secondly I have researched the topic enough in addition to my experiences and symptoms  as well as my measurements of -02 directly after I did the technique to verify the mechanism is in fact  hypoxia. or deficiency of oxygen. 

I am on the side of truth and awareness as well as concern for peoples health.

I am not  a blind follower of  of leo or anyone else I think for myself. I do my own research and take no sides.   I am impartial. Nothing would have made me happier  than to find a new technique to add to my tool box. It just ended up that this was not what was advertised , more so it could be harmful. leo has a responsibility to his community to research practices such as this and in an educated manner explain to his followers what is causing the effect and what the risks are. If he is unwilling to do that he should not advocate there use.  He should have the at the very least the best interest of his community at heart and if he does not that is a huge problem.

I advocate awareness in all things nor do I expect people to blindly believe me.   I expect them to do there own research and then make a informed educated choice after they have come to there own conclusion.  Not mine and not leo's.  If what I am saying is the true.  It is testable and verifiable. If what I am saying is true,  what leo is saying is false. So which  is the mechanism that are causing the effects ?  Is it over oxygenated blood or O2 deprivation. It can not be both.  If leo is wrong you should be evaluating more than just if you should do this technique. You should be asking your self what kind of person advocates the use of something that they do not even understand and could cause harm.  Through all of leos hundreds of talks about truth and  knowledge I though he was above  such a error. In this matter he has allied himself with ignorance or laziness and that is dangerous. More over he has brought that danger to your doorstep because of his influence on this community. I have to say  I am rather disappointed Leo.    

All I am asking is you look into this practice deeper if you have a smart phone that can test spO2 test it directly after your breathing session.   From there you can study effects of O2 deprivation. If you understand the risks and what you are actually doing and what mechanism that  is actually being utilized to get the effects and  you still want to take the risk. That is completely up to you. At that point I have done my job and brought awareness to this matter.

I can tell you I will never use this technique myself again. 

"By using this technique you are agreeing that I am not legally responsible for any physical or psychological harm that you may cause yourself "..... -leo  Gura  direct quote from video.  I am glad he is looking out for himself.

Nahm I have lost any respect I once had  for you because of this careless comment.   Everyone on this forum should be searching for the truth in all things. Not taking sides but if I must take a side I take the side of truth , knowledge and the fact that I do so out of genuine concern for others well-being  not just for the sake of being  right.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Source_Mystic