I'm so lost and confused over Enlightenment.

[NoSelfSelf]

You can still enjoy everything even better than before

[Sempiternity]

15 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

You can still enjoy everything even better than before

Not trying to be contrarian here, but I'm getting the feeling that alot of people here are not even reading the posts they are responding to, and have not even watched Leo's videos. According to the teaching here, there is no Self, so you can't enjoy anything. And there is nothing to enjoy, as it's all a made up hallucination, according to these teachings. But, thank you for trying to help. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Jed Vassallo

[Faceless]

14 minutes ago, Jed Vassallo said:

Not trying to be contrarian here, but I'm getting the feeling that alot of people here are not even reading the posts they are responding to, and have not even watched Leo's videos. According to the teaching here, there is no Self, so you can't enjoy anything. And there is nothing to enjoy, as it's all a made up hallucination, according to these teachings. 

Yeah i have only seen part of one of his videos. 

And yes I have noticed the not reading of post responded to thing as well. 

That’s the nature of clinging to the known for ya. Like I said if people can’t even listen to you and reply accodingly, whats the point??‍♂️

Right??

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Faceless

[Sempiternity]

16 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Yeah i have only seen part of one of his videos. 

And yes I have noticed the not reading of post responded to thing as well. 

That’s the nature of clinging to the known for ya. Like I said if people can’t even listen to you and reply accodingly, whats the point??‍♂️

Right??

 

Agreed. But, if you haven't seen much of Leo's videos, I highly recommend watching them. Namely: 

 and 

Will all twist your mind.

[Faceless]

2 minutes ago, Jed Vassallo said:

Agreed. But, if you haven't seen much of Leo's videos, I highly recommend watching them. Namely: 

 and 

Will all twist your mind.

I do my exploring directly. I’ve explored all those in my self already ??

thanks buddy?

[NoSelfSelf]

@Jed Vassallo You are using black and white thinking here i could write you an essay on this...after enlightment you still experience everything pain pleasure hunger but you dont suffer it you just experience it and everything is a joy so i must say because of language that you will enjoy even better food sex etc...

[blazed]

@Jed Vassallo

Those videos are the more recent videos,  Leo has talked about enlightenment so much that he's going into more and more concepts and ideas, and ultimately it's mental masturbating and it can seem to have a negative outlook on enlightenment.

Try watching more of original, first spiritual videos, where he talks about the benefits.

Simply put spiritual work is inner engineering as opposed to outer engineering.

You become your own therapist to know thyself.

A person who only does external things for example, might make lots of money, but they may also have a lot of dysfunction in their lives, such as divorced marriages, anger issues, impatience,  Narcissism, violence, frustration, emotions, excessive drinking, smoking, drug use behavior, etc. etc.

The more you know yourself, the more you can change yourself and organise yourself to be in the best way that's right for you.

These days society is so focused on external improvement they have forgotten that inner work is even possible. 

These dysfunctional people are so far gone they are even completely blind to the benefits of inner work that they wouldn't even consider it.

The more spiritual work you do, the more you deconstruct yourself and the more likely you will see truth or get spiritual enlightenment.

This does not mean however that you and all your memories will vanish and you that you will no longer exist, it's just now you will see and know more than you previously had, you will see through the ego and not identify with it as much.

Enlightenment is not the same thing as the physical death of the body, obviously.

Also, maybe spirituality isn't for you, your mind will conclude this for you, there are some people no matter what you say to them, just won't be interested in it, and that's were no free will comes in.

When you look into the future you can't see things written but when you look at the past you realise it was always bound to happen because it did happen, at least in this one reality of infinite possibilities. As Steve Job said, you can only connect the dots looking backwards.

I would recommend not to do Spirituality for "Enlightmentment" but for self improvement instead, and self management, each session will improve yourself just a tiny little bit, just like each session at the gym will grow your muscles a tiny bit. The more effective your methods and the more consistent work put in, the bigger your gains will be.

Edited April 12, 2018 by blazed

[Nahm]

7 hours ago, Jed Vassallo said:

I'm going directly off of Leo's videos. Namely the one on there is no brain, there is no free will, and the ones on infinity. According to these videos, there is no physical world. The whole world and everything in it, is a hallucination made by infinite consciousness, that is also nothingness. I do not know what nothingness experience is like, since I have not done the 10,000 hours of work it supposedly takes to experience it. Point of the post was, why would I want to experience it? 

Don’t bother. 

[abrakamowse]

[B_Naz]

Heres the thing about the issue you're currently having. Leo is simply telling you to be open minded. To destroy your materialistic paradigm. So of course nothing makes sense right now, so that is why people responding "Do spiritual work" and "You will find it in yourself". I think the issue is that you feel like you have to try to exist. When you're talking about "how do I enjoy stuff", its the fact you're trying to enjoy stuff. You're "doing" to enjoy stuff rather than simply "enjoying". This is the main difference between "doing" and "being". You assume that since there is no ego after enlightenment, there is no enjoyment but you see after only you've been enlightened, you can finally understand why enjoyment is not needed, since there is no self. So HA, if there is no enjoyment, then why do I want to be enlightened! I won't be able to enjoy things anymore! But why do you want to enjoy things in the first place. EGO.

That goes onto another point, then why bother doing anything if nothing I do is for me or if nothing is actually real?. THAT is the question you need to be asking. You must BE and not DO. Why bother doing things if it isn't real? It seems like its a chore. But that's way meditation is needed. That's why we need to think about why we do things. That is why we tell ourselves to clear our minds when we meditate, so we can "be" rather than thinking, which is essentially "doing". Only when we are true absence of the thoughts we are being. This is why we become mindful of our actions. What are we "doing". You see the common theme? You're doing. Not being.

So I'm going to try to answer these questions in a way to keep you in line with actualized.org. To stop you from backsliding

How can reality be nothing?

The universe is created by the big bang. Outside of that is nothing. So if you want to apply logic to this question, the only way the universe could be made if it was equal to nothing. The big bang was nothing. Reality is nothing, because it was made from nothing. assume n is nothing and R is relationship. nRn. Nothing has a relation with nothing. But that doesn't make sense and hence you need to work on it by BEING. It is why you can't explain how reality can be nothing with Science. And if you use science to explain why reality exists, it goes backwards. OK how am I made? Atoms. How are atoms made? Stars. How are stars made? from the explosion of the big bang, antimatter and matter, collision. Ok? How is the big bag made? It's not, its made from nothing. So we are nothing. This makes no sense at all because of the materialistic and idea of "objective" paradigms. Find these answers, then you find why reality is nothing

Why bother doing anything if nothing exists?

You don't need to do anything even if reality does exist. Nothing is forcing you to do something but "yourself" which is the ego. You can just sit in silence and be content and one with the universe. That is what Leo actually promotes. Will this affect your day to day life to a point where your life is going to be ruined from doing nothing?!. No. Again, it's your ego saying "DO THINGS". It only affects your interpretation of the universe. You can still work in a 9-5 job or study at school but ultimately, you've realised that nothing exists, so I am just being and you become content.

After enlightenment, there is no ego, there is no need for enjoyment

The ego is all about "me". So you do not need enjoyment! You don't need to do anything! So is it shameful to enjoy things? No. But what is shameful is for not realising you're inline with the ego and doing. That is something you have to explore by yourself. But what I can say is that is a lot of these topics are repetitive, and you come to ask yourself the same questions... The same responses.. The same everything because you're questioning your logic in every way. You do not need enjoyment because there is no self. So what about it. Oh I won't enjoy things anymore, how sad. Again, your ego is telling you its bad to not enjoy things, and you get addicted to enjoying things and never become content with what you have. Nothing is sad. Nothing is real. This is a beautiful flow of nothingness!

 

So with the Why Brains Doesn't Exist. Leo was really strong about the materialistic paradigm, the paradigm where we believe there must be some sort of material or substance to hold us all together. When we look at this more deeply, there is no such thing. The big bang supposedly "created" the universe. But where is the universe created from? Nothing. This is because the laws of science doesn't apply to outside of the universe. The "appearences" does not apply to the outside mythical universe. But heres the thing, there is no outside of the universe, this is only a manifestation. This is all a hallucination, its all for nothing. But that's the thing, if its all for nothing, and nothing is real, why do something. That is the point I'm trying to make with this post. There is no need to DO. There is only to BE because nothing exists. You can be nothing. Now to say nothing exists is never truly an correct answer. We just need to find out if what Leo said is true. 

Sorry for being naive if I am. If I am wrong in any way, PLEASE tell me. I am a new comer to the forums and haven't actually expressed my opinions before!

Edited April 12, 2018 by B_Naz
Grammar

[robdl]

14 hours ago, aEOf said:

 Jesus probably got jerked off a couple of times.

 

quote of the thread

[Malelekakis]

There is nothing for you to enlightenement. Go for enlightenement if you do not have anything else to do, go for enlightenement if you are willing to give up your life. You will do eventually so don't bother.you can't know what is on the other side, you will never know.go for enlightenement only if you can't live with lies anymore. If you get to deep you can't get out so leave before its too late,you will have no choice then but to keep on waking up. Enlightenement is nothing, it will give you exactly that. Enjoy the illusion but you will get there eventually. YOU CAN'T ESCAPE IT, WHERE CAN REALITY RUN TO FROM ITS SELF  

[Space]

12 hours ago, Jed Vassallo said:

I'm going directly off of Leo's videos. Namely the one on there is no brain, there is no free will, and the ones on infinity. According to these videos, there is no physical world. The whole world and everything in it, is a hallucination made by infinite consciousness, that is also nothingness. I do not know what nothingness experience is like, since I have not done the 10,000 hours of work it supposedly takes to experience it. Point of the post was, why would I want to experience it? 

Be carefull because it sounds like you're just blindly believing everything Leo says, and even then not actually understanding it properly. You need to realise that everything you're writing about is purely conceptual. All your ideas about 'enlightenment', about 'infinity', about 'consciousness', about 'nothingness' are all not what they are referring to, and are all just thoughts that are, to a certain degree, no use to you at all. They are guidelines that should be understood, but held loosely and not mistaken for whats actually true. 

16 hours ago, Jed Vassallo said:

 So how does this help my life at all? If I do the work and disappear Self and the physical world, then what? I don't exist, people do not exist, the world does not exist. I can't enjoy family, they don't exist. I can't enjoy sex, as there is no self to enjoy it. I can't enjoy anything, as I do not exist and nothing exists. I'm just consciousness, without any sense of anything else (as it's all an illusion).

This is all false and just assumptions that you're making about something which you have no direct experience of. You don't realise that you don't exist right now. There is no self right now, yet you still enjoy sex, family and everything else. Sensory and emotional pleasure are not affected by spiritual awakening. If anything you will enjoy them 100x more.

'I'm just consciousness' is just a thought, a belief. Drop it. You don't know what you are. 

[Lurtsi]

19 hours ago, Jed Vassallo said:

I've been watching the videos. So, all there is, is a nothingness that has manifested never-ending field of consciousness. The physical world is not real and does not exist. We do not exist. All of it is an illusion. Nothing exists, other than consciousness (a consciousness, without any sense of Self or stories or perceptions). So how does this help my life at all? If I do the work and disappear Self and the physical world, then what? I don't exist, people do not exist, the world does not exist. I can't enjoy family, they don't exist. I can't enjoy sex, as there is no self to enjoy it. I can't enjoy anything, as I do not exist and nothing exists.

Like others have pointed out before your conceptions of these ideas are actually not the thing to which they are pointing to. And in this case it seems like your mind if twisting them into particularly negative and nihilistic form so don't take those as truth.

14 hours ago, Jed Vassallo said:

But, all of Actualized.org's videos tell us that all of that is a illusion. There is no Self, there is no such thing as love, there is no physical world. There is no being happier, cause there is no you to be happy. There is no use in better communication skills, as there are no people to communicate to. It's all a hallucination. So either Leo is right, and we are just nothingness and nothing in this life matter not one bit. Or the old paradigm is right, and I should continue to try and make my life better.

Here you have to understand Leo's style of communicating things. He often talks kinda harshly and straight on which can be taken in a grim light if you are not careful. Still the old paradigm and actualized.org are ultimately talking about the same thing, just in a different manner. These teachings are designed to point you towards the truth, not tell you the truth.

On the questions how to enjoy anything after enlightenment and why even try to reach it: You might have heard the saying "Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water" which I have understood as nothing really changes after realizing the truth. Things are the same as they've always been and you can keep on living your life in an ordinary way. You'll be for sure looking at life from a different perspective but not at all negative or empty one even though "everything is nothing/emptiness". When you realize that you yourself are an illusion and disappear it actually means at the same time that you become everything since everything is in the deepest level unified. 

When you are enlightened and amidst of doing something you used to enjoy as a person from an individual egoic perspective of course the physical pleasures are still there. On top of that you can see life and infinity unfolding as you go on about your business and see the beauty in the creation as it happens. So you definitely can enjoy BEING after enlightenment 

But of course I'm not enlightened or anything myself so it's just my understanding and in some way speculation but in the end I don't see clinging on to negative, twisted views of these topics any helpful. I remember thinking like you at the moment when i first learned about this stuff and it seems like it's really common actually. Sooo finally i recommend you not to believe anything or anyone blindly but thinking yourself like people here always recommend but at the same time watching out for self-delusions. I highly recommend watching Leo's video on self-delusions asap if you haven't. That really sheds some light on how your mind tricks itself.

[Joseph Maynor]

It’s something that has to grow on you.  

[Krishna Siva]

@Jed Vassallo

Why would I even persue enlightenment?

First, Why would you even start eating healthy? 

Isn't that just shit? I'm eating raw / minimally cooked vegetables, and on top of that, I'm stuck to this minimalist diet! 

But, what about the consequences? You start feeling healthy and energetic! And you start to inherit the taste!  

This is what consciousness too is like. The way you define "enjoyment" is restrictive. Just like the example I've given above, consciousness itself can become enjoyable and calming.

We are not here to become hardcore stoics, or monks who wanna rush to enlightenment. The objective of enlightenment is to become aware of the present moment, and to enjoy it.

To enjoy it.

Theory doesn't give proper perspective at all. Language is restrictive. Even the best expressions are just honey to the ears. Direct experience is the thing that actually matters.

We gave had direct experience with sex, food and the other pleasurable things in life. 

Why not stretch ourselves out of our comfort zone and try and experience stuff?

The shit Leo's taking about right now ( Quantum Mechanics debunks reality, etc. ), to me, is like contemplating how meditation feels like, without never having meditated in my life, and that is fine. 

You will gain a better perspective by meditating, though. 

So doing some consciousness work, should open you up to the flavor of Awareness, and just see whether you like it or not. 

That's the same way you have to try to understand this, I guess. Try to think from the eyes of an enlightenment guy, and.... Not in your shoes. That makes it hard.

I hope this gives you a new standpoint to look at things.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Krishna Siva

[Markus]

@Jed Vassallo You misunderstand what it's like. Enlightenment is the end of suffering, and abiding states of non-dual awareness are pleasant as well. The world, you, and others will continue to exist, it's just that the way you see all of that will be radically different.

[Guest Quanty]

What are you writing is not enlightenment, are just concepts of the mind.

Enlightenment is the opposite to what you say here basically.

 

 

<3