Two Questions to ask

[i am I AM]

I suppose a sociopath could believe, theoretically, they are enlightened. 

Wouldn't the knowledge of some kind of "enlightenment" by a sociopath, however, suggest that rather than just a concept, there is actual enlightenment? What do you think?

[Thanatos13]

39 minutes ago, Soulbass said:

1. Leo says the happiest people in the world, are monks and sages (but it's hard to get it, unless you become a monk or a sage yourself).

2. Non-duality doesn't mean having no emotions, or being detached. I don't know exactly what is non-duality tho.

3. There is no 3

1. I would not trust Leo’s word on anything, or most things.

[Thanatos13]

19 minutes ago, i am I AM said:

I suppose a sociopath could believe, theoretically, they are enlightened. 

Wouldn't the knowledge of some kind of "enlightenment" by a sociopath, however, suggest that rather than just a concept, there is actual enlightenment? What do you think?

Everything we speak of is a concept, even if we can’t always put it into words. The experience they like to preach is cognitive whether they want to admit it or not. But they assign some arbitrary line as to what is mind or not.

To me there isn’t really a difference between a sociopath who claims to be it, a cult leader who says so, or a monk. The end result seems the same, and none of them can really prove it. When asked you get a bunch of vagueness that tells you nothing. They claim speaking in paradoxes and metaphors is how they explain it, but that just sounds like a smokescreen more for them and less for others. 

Humans don’t like uncertainty, so they make spirituality. 

[Faceless]

 

1 hour ago, Thanatos13 said:

Enlightenment doesn’t exist, even if it did it would just be another concept. 

It’s how I keep myself honest. One must remove the power that “personal experience” and “spirituality” hold over them

Spirituality is a word I use because most people on this forum use it. Just a word. And yes I understand personal experience. I understand that the known determines experience. And honesty...that’s what I meant by discovering how action born out of duality is influencing your daily life. It influences what you believe to be true and what you disbelieve to be true. Like the atheist and theist for example, both myths and false beliefs.

And as far as enlightenment...yes if you are influenced by writings, what others have said, and not gone into your own conditioning then you will remain bound by conceptualizations. If you are identified with a certain point of view and that brings about psychological security you will be caught in your own illusion and deception. That’s what I mean by going into yourself ‘as the ego/thought’  and exploring duality. 

It’s about taking away the bs when seeing its falsness not adding more. 

‘You’ do not become enlightened. There is only that state of enlightenment when there is no movement to become, or when the movement of “psychological time” ceases. When the movement of will, demand, volition, and the compulsion to attain or accomplish is no more. When you are free from the desire to be free and when the already inherent quaility of harmony can be expressed as intelligent action. 

 

As as I said before don’t get caught up in books with there methods, techniques, knowledge, and the trap of experience influenced by the known. You have all you need to explore in yourself. 

 

[i am I AM]

You are correct, I have my beliefs and values based on my own experience. It's ok to have your own opinions, because that's simply what makes up who you are. Thank you for the insightful conversation.

[Soulbass]

@Thanatos13 If we are here on this forum talking about those things, it's because we're afraid to live or lives (it takes some courage to get in this level of reality). Everything is a game of polarity. Because we love ourselves so much, we are creating in our lives the experience of not loving ourselves as we are, so we can do self-actualization work. The more we try to get somewhere, the more we lose touch with ourselves. Of course we are always in touch with ourselves, but creating the illusion of not being in touch with ourselves is part of the game.

We have memories of what it was like before living on earth, that's why we are inspired to emerge in this level of reality : to get lost, and find ourselves back.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Soulbass

[Thanatos13]

3 minutes ago, Soulbass said:

@Thanatos13 Dunno about happiness, but sure life isn't about happiness (but having experiences). If we are here on this forum talking about those things, it's because we're afraid to live or lives (it takes some courage to get there). Everything is a game of polarity. Because we love ourselves so much, we are creating in our lives the experience of not loving ourselves as we are, and doing self-actualization work. The more we try to get somewhere, the more we lost touch with ourselves. Of course we are always in touch with ourselves, but creating the illusion of not being in touch with ourselves is part of the game.

We have memories of what it was like before living on earth, that's why we are inspired to get there : to lose ourselves in the matter, and find ourselves back.

I believe everyone around me (who's not into spirituality and consciousness work) are the most spiritual creatures that ever lived.

Sorry to say that most if not all of that is wrong. 

We don’t have memories of life before earth. This is but a delusion. 

Life isn’t about anything. That’s why people can do whatever they wish with it. 

People aren’t afraid to live their lives either.

I don’t think you fully understand what has been said. 

[Soulbass]

@Thanatos13 In the absolute, time doesn't exist. It's more convenient and makes more sense for us to say "memory from the past" ^^

Thanks for the discussion (mirror)

[Forestluv]

@Thanatos13 It’s not something that is learned or understood. It just “IS”. 

It is repulsive to the self. It’s no-thing and every-thing. Every idea and thought you have just “IS” and has no more relevance than any other thought.

The self and all it’s thoughts is all WITHIN it. For my self, moments of awakening came with self dissolution. Everything I thought and believed was stripped away. Early on, the loss of mental control was so terrifying my self wanted to commit suicide since that was the only way to regain control.

If one is immersed in debating and “figuring it out”, they haven’t even encountered the rabbit hole yet.

As the self dissolves, there are not the same highs and lows. The character still goes on, but there isn’t the attachment to the story or the chase for completion. 

The self gains nothing, it gets jack squat. The self gets exposed and loses all. There is no way to sugar coat it: the process involves brutal and terrifying moments to the self. Yet, its also beautiful and liberating.

With that said, there are some beautiful duality teachings.

And a reminder to all: dual vs nondual wars are against the TOA - so keep it civil.

[Faceless]

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

And a reminder to all: dual vs nondual wars are against the TOA - so keep it civil.

If action is influenced by duality then accepting non dual teachings has no relevance and is meaningless. 

Thats why exploring duality very deeply if one has that perspective becomes its own action to wholeness. It’s not about one vs the other

after all that’s action born of duality 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

13 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

As the self dissolves, there are not the same highs and lows

Isn’t this a beautiful thing?

[Faceless]

16 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The self gains nothing, it gets jack squat. The self gets exposed and loses all.

As this?

[Thanatos13]

16 minutes ago, Soulbass said:

@Thanatos13 In the absolute, time doesn't exist. It's more convenient and makes more sense for us to say "memory from the past" ^^

Thanks for the discussion (mirror)

There is no absolute. That’s similar to many airy ideas people make to feel better about uncertainty.

 

15 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Thanatos13 It’s not something that is learned or understood. It just “IS”. 

It is repulsive to the self. It’s no-thing and every-thing. Every idea and thought you have just “IS” and has no more relevance than any other thought.

The self and all it’s thoughts is all WITHIN it. For my self, moments of awakening came with self dissolution. Everything I thought and believed was stripped away. Early on, the loss of mental control was so terrifying my self wanted to commit suicide since that was the only way to regain control.

If one is immersed in debating and “figuring it out”, they haven’t even encountered the rabbit hole yet.

As the self dissolves, there are not the same highs and lows. The character still goes on, but there isn’t the attachment to the story or the chase for completion. 

The self gains nothing, it gets jack squat. The self gets exposed and loses all. There is no way to sugar coat it: the process involves brutal and terrifying moments to the self. Yet, its also beautiful and liberating.

With that said, there are some beautiful duality teachings.

And a reminder to all: dual vs nondual wars are against the TOA - so keep it civil.

I’m afraid that is just not correct. Every effect has a cause, things aren’t just “is”. That’s when people run out of justification for what they believe.

Once again you prove that the teaching don’t prove anything, they just elicit a certain state. That’s all. You aren’t really exposing the self rather than destroying it and gaining a different viewpoint. Even dissolution doesn’t prove anything only that dissolving the self leads to a different point of view. Yet the view has no truth. 

Thoughts have a cause, they aren’t “is”. You don’t want to debate because then you would have to realize what a sandcastle your worldview is.

5 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Isn’t this a beautiful thing?

That’s not truth either, there are some who say the dissolution of self is worse than having it. But they choose it anyway for who knows why. There aren’t highs and lows, there is nothing and therefor no action.

[Soulbass]

@Thanatos13

[Forestluv]

@Thanatos13 You won’t figure it out. Perhaps try taking 200ug of lsd, 30mg of 5-meo-dmt or go into 10 days of solitary in darkness.  Yet, ease your way in. It can be absolutely brutal to the self.

The self won’t let go without a fight and you are immersed in self.

[Faceless]

11 minutes ago, Thanatos13 said:

There is no absolute. That’s similar to many airy ideas people make to feel better about uncertainty.

 

I’m afraid that is just not correct. Every effect has a cause, things aren’t just “is”. That’s when people run out of justification for what they believe.

Once again you prove that the teaching don’t prove anything, they just elicit a certain state. That’s all. You aren’t really exposing the self rather than destroying it and gaining a different viewpoint. Even dissolution doesn’t prove anything only that dissolving the self leads to a different point of view. Yet the view has no truth. 

Thoughts have a cause, they aren’t “is”. You don’t want to debate because then you would have to realize what a sandcastle your worldview is.

That’s not truth either, there are some who say the dissolution of self is worse than having it. But they choose it anyway for who knows why. There aren’t highs and lows, there is nothing and therefor no action.

Life is action

[Pernani]

You don't have to do anything in life, everything you choose to do is a choice and people just do whatever the fuck they wanna do

[Thanatos13]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Thanatos13 You won’t figure it out. Perhaps try taking 200ug of lsd or go into 10 days of solitary in darkness. 

The self won’t let go without a fight and you are immersed in self.

LSD doesn’t yield any sort of insight, merely a drug (to use the technical term for it) that results in altered perception. It’s humans who assign any sort of value to that perception and make it more than what it is. 

The same goes for you claim to “destroying the self”, even though it’s hard to prove such a statement for if the self doesn’t exist then there isn’t anything to destroy, even then how do you know when there isn’t one? Can one be certain? Who decided what no self is and can they be sure that it’s still isn’t just the self? 

To me the sense of self is similar to the sense of no self. Both are merely a perception that people assign meaning to. You assign meaning to it as some kind of truth, the same that others assign it meaning as something that exists.

A cursory glance at life suggests that nonduality and noself isn’t the truth of existence. But people will believe what they want either way. 

I think Pyrrho had the right idea (though I hate to admit it) about suspending judgment on nonevident matters, and this is about as nonevident as it gets. 

But you are wrong about the ego, I think. It doesn’t like “not self”, it dislikes uncertainty and hates doubt. No self just sounds like the truth and so people pursue it. There is a reason mystics secluded themselves and so do monks, but it has little to do with truth to me. It’s so they can construct a view away from others. We merely give their words more power than they deserve, because we are human. We make meaning. If we didn’t then everything said here and anywhere else is but dust in the wind. 

Perhaps it’s best not to take their words for granted. Ultimately we are trapped in our own perceptions, the difference between folks is that some are ok with the unknown and some aren’t.

[Thanatos13]

2 minutes ago, Pernani said:

You don't have to do anything in life, everything you choose to do is a choice and people just do whatever the fuck they wanna do

It’s more like the illusion of choice. But you never really had it to begin with. Free will is a myth after all. 

[Thanatos13]

But I suppose we will all just have to agree to disagree.