Understanding Islam - What Almost No Critic Understands About Jihad

[UDT]

Thank you for this video Leo. I feel its important that you get positive feedback on walking this path since it is part of your heroes journey and you need to walk it alone and decide by yourself to continue with it. Dont underestimate the profound positive effect you can have.  Especially what is said between the lines here is fighting corruption of mind on a large scale. You can see that by the reactions of people who are not ready for this or may never be. I´m looking forward for more and my respect for your holistic pov also about your native culture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Watch the video here:

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[Joseph Maynor]

I agree.  I’m enjoying observing the stir this is causing.  It’s like disrupting an ant colony and then observing the effects like an impartial scientist.  I’m watching carefully and reading all the comments, including the YouTube comments.  It’s fascinating.  This is the kind of content that hits a nerve.  It gets people off their fake fence and empowers them to say what they really feel and think.  That’s good!  ‘Out the picture’ I always say! 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[YaNanNallari]

It seems like the whole comment section didn't watch the video

[Steph1988]

I'm have not been very positive about Islam but i want to really challenge myself here, I'm gonna watch it with an as open mind as possible.

very curious about this one.

[Amine]

As a muslim born and native arabic speaker, I think that @Leo Gura's perspective is way too superficial and naive and it lacks practical understanding of the muslim culture and islam basics. Leo looks at all religions with the same lenses.

First, Leo supposed in the begining of the video that Mohammed was enlightened, a statement that is bold and needs to be explored deeply. A prophet is not by definition an enlightened person, and vise versa.

Asking this question objectively doesn't make sense, since what remains of Mohammed is only some of his quotes (Hadith) and his biographies (Sira) which wasn't written untill a hundred years after his death and which can of course be subject to change and corruption by scholars. and which are by the way ego driven and include (racism, sexism, inequality, especially to women, and non muslims, not to forget about apostates)

Not only that, but what is in Islam doesn't necessary mean it came from mohammed's experience, it can be either copied from older religion (i.e 5 prayers a day is also in Zoroastrianism, Quran stories come from biblican and jewish references, etc) or other people helping mohammed (Waraka ibn nawfal, a well known scholar of christianity that is claimed to have helped mohammed to write first chapters and many others). 

Second, regardless of Mohammed's spiritual views, Islam while in arabia 670AD was in no way about spirituality, as Mohammed used to spend most of his time expanding Islam through wars (one war every two months on average) which brought him money through taking fortunes and money of invaded tribes, and making women of these tribes after killing their families, a proprety of muslims (Milk al yamin), which is of course allowed in islam. If you read the hadith and the daily life of Mohammed, you would find him going all night to have sex with his 12 wifes, at 1am (Hadith sahih : which means an approuved quote from mohammed) 

Third, there is nothing to be fixed in islam, as in it's fundementals, it is a dualistic religion that opresses to anyone who tries or even intents to do otherwise than what is in the Quran and Hadith which includes all punishements of muslims (cutting one's hand if he steals) not to forget about non muslims that either pay taxes or get killed. 

Leo sees islam from an enlightened perspective, but is it really the intent of Mohammed? I personally don't think that a religion that points towards the truth tells you to kill those who don't agree with you or "beleive in other god", or to marry four wives and have unlimited number of sex slaved that you "gained" from wars.

[Raymondo]

Leo didnt say Mohammed is enlightened but that a lot of things pointed to that direction and yes there was a lot of wars going on but it was about establishing peace and not for the sake of war, the Muslim expansion wars happened after Mohammad's death, Mohammed seems like the person who seeks peace and unity, at least many things point that direction. You saying Mohammed slaughtered innocence is simply a bluff, but we will never know for sure, all I know is the people loved him entirely. 

Imo you dont seem like a muslim or maybe you hang around with muslims who doesnt understand the true fundamentality of islam which is most likely to happen since 90% muslims doesnt interpet islam in every option it can be interpeted. Islam has changed and people has probably changed the true meaning of it but a lot of things point to that it has a lot to do with enlightenment. 

We can never know for sure though

 

[Leo Gura]

The trouble with all religion, in general, is that it mixes truths derived from genuine mystical experience with a political system of control. It's a bit like mixing caviar with poo. That's what distinguishes religion from mysticism. Mysticism is pure spirituality, without hierarchy or a political agenda. Religion always has a political agenda and seeks to establish a ruling authority.

Mohammad was a mystic, but ALSO, he was a political leader who sought to unify warring tribes within Arabia and spread knowledge of the existence of Allah. As a political leader, of course he had to do a lot of evil stuff, otherwise he and his tribe would have been killed. Unification isn't all rainbows and butterflies. Political unification requires war and bloodshed to force people to submit under one banner.

Harems were standard practice in Arabia at that time.

[NoSelfSelf]

@Leo Gura why they want to establish a ruling authority(fighting for monopoly)?Does priests know what they are talking  about it seems they try to explain metaphors(from bible for ex.)from perspective of the ego?Im also curious about people who listen to some religious leader(from christinity for example) and they start to help everyone in order to be a better person and they talk only about religion in every aspect of life...

[Spinoza]

1 hour ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Leo Gura why they want to establish a ruling authority(fighting for monopoly)?Does priests know what they are talking  about it seems they try to explain metaphors(from bible for ex.)from perspective of the ego?Im also curious about people who listen to some religious leader(from christinity for example) and they start to help everyone in order to be a better person and they talk only about religion in every aspect of life...

Maybe what is written in holly books is not metaphors, but we can see it like that to make it better

[Akim]

For me this video tries to reinterpret Islam. More precisely do a Hindu reinterpretation. Like all is one, everyone is God. I am not saying it is a bad thing, but there are huge distinctions between religions. In Abrahamic religions there is separation between God and human and material world. God creates humans and the world but is not them. Human submit to God not to the world. In Islam, as I understand it, there is a strong emphasis on God oneness and always controlling everything. Christianity is different in that you have a free human, who can make choices and God wants human to strive toward being God like and sent Jesus to show and create the way to make it possible. There are also some branches of Christianity that don't believe in free will, and in many other aspects it is way more complex than that, but that is the point.

One may say that on some higher level this distinctions are irrelevant and just word games, but on my level and on the level on many people I suspect they are relevant. Some say this distinctions lead to very different cultures and worldviews, for example there is a popular notion these days in conservative circles that science is a direct consequence of Christian worldview. Worldview that says that material world is separate and humans have free will to develop and cultivate it. If you believe that everything is a dream or that God always controls everything, why bother.

 

[Joseph Maynor]

@Akim Is it proper assume Islam is a monolith?  When you say reinterpret Islam, whose conception of Islam are we talking about?  Is there really an essence to Islam?  And is that conception of Islam even relevant to the thesis that Leo is advancing?  Let’s say Leo is painting a picture of Islam to make a deeper point, does his “different” conception of Islam invalidate his deeper points?  What are Leo’s main points in the video?

Edited April 2, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Akim]

@Joseph Maynor

12 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Is it proper assume Islam is a monolith? 

There are some basic things that you can say about Islam, like God in Islam is "the all-powerful and all-knowing ruler of the universe, and the creator of everything in existence within the universe." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Islam

Humans are not God, material world is not God, they are just created and ruled by God.

16 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

When you say reinterpret Islam, whose conception of Islam are we talking about?

Concept of God, like mentioned above. Leo is saying he is God, reality is God.

18 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Is there really an essence to Islam?

Don't know, hard to tell. But in Islam Mohamed is not God, Jesus is explicitly said to be prophet and not God. It is like serious deal.

26 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

And is that conception of Islam even relevant to the thesis that Leo is advancing?  Let’s say Leo is painting a picture of Islam to make a deeper point, does his “different” conception of Islam invalidate his deeper points?  What are Leo’s main points in the video?

It looks to me that Leo is trying to build bridges and mutual understanding. But in doing so he paints very Hindu version of Islam. May be there are some Sufi citations that would agree with him, but in general it is not prevailing current Islamic worldview as it looks to me.

But may be the point is to explain Islam in terms of non-duality for modern yoga oriented westerners. Then it may be a good start.

 

[SFRL]

Great video. There still is way too much discrimination towards other religions and cultures, and other races. Even on the Actualized.org forum. Which looks kind of crazy too me. This supposedly being the Sage Academy etc. The ignorance doesn't line up with my idea of higher consiousness etc.

Also I just love History and sociological constructions. That's very interesting to me. 

I understand that to some people this video might not be perfectly describing Islam. But where else do you find a video that tries to make some nuanced points about Islam, weighing different things against each other, and generally gives off a positive vibe? 

Edited April 2, 2018 by SFRL

[UDT]

17 hours ago, Amine said:

As a muslim born and native arabic speaker, I think that @Leo Gura's perspective is way too superficial and naive and it lacks practical understanding of the muslim culture and islam basics. Leo looks at all religions with the same lenses.

First, Leo supposed in the begining of the video that Mohammed was enlightened, a statement that is bold and needs to be explored deeply. A prophet is not by definition an enlightened person, and vise versa.

Asking this question objectively doesn't make sense, since what remains of Mohammed is only some of his quotes (Hadith) and his biographies (Sira) which wasn't written untill a hundred years after his death and which can of course be subject to change and corruption by scholars. and which are by the way ego driven and include (racism, sexism, inequality, especially to women, and non muslims, not to forget about apostates)

Not only that, but what is in Islam doesn't necessary mean it came from mohammed's experience, it can be either copied from older religion (i.e 5 prayers a day is also in Zoroastrianism, Quran stories come from biblican and jewish references, etc) or other people helping mohammed (Waraka ibn nawfal, a well known scholar of christianity that is claimed to have helped mohammed to write first chapters and many others). 

Second, regardless of Mohammed's spiritual views, Islam while in arabia 670AD was in no way about spirituality, as Mohammed used to spend most of his time expanding Islam through wars (one war every two months on average) which brought him money through taking fortunes and money of invaded tribes, and making women of these tribes after killing their families, a proprety of muslims (Milk al yamin), which is of course allowed in islam. If you read the hadith and the daily life of Mohammed, you would find him going all night to have sex with his 12 wifes, at 1am (Hadith sahih : which means an approuved quote from mohammed) 

Third, there is nothing to be fixed in islam, as in it's fundementals, it is a dualistic religion that opresses to anyone who tries or even intents to do otherwise than what is in the Quran and Hadith which includes all punishements of muslims (cutting one's hand if he steals) not to forget about non muslims that either pay taxes or get killed. 

Leo sees islam from an enlightened perspective, but is it really the intent of Mohammed? I personally don't think that a religion that points towards the truth tells you to kill those who don't agree with you or "beleive in other god", or to marry four wives and have unlimited number of sex slaved that you "gained" from wars.

Thank you for your answer. See that everything you say has a valid point. Notice that the teaching and the religion are a different thing as the religion is a man-made institution which is built upon the teaching.

No one is to judge wheter Mohammed was a corrupt teacher or not. Enlightenment is not a constant state (might be achievable in the solitude of a monastery). See that most gurus take their insight to cash in. This includes Leo Gura!

The key-point of the video imo is that all teaching point to the same.

Edited April 2, 2018 by UDT

[Amine]

2 hours ago, UDT said:

all teaching point to the same.

 

 

I agree with you, and I think that @Leo's intent to talk about islam is related to the fact he's got considerable followers from the middle east and from muslim countries.

The issue, in my opinion is, like leo stated, Islam is misunderstood by many people but the true religion called Islam and its sharia is unfortunately the Islam that extremists talk about and the one you hear about in the media. Who would understand Islam better than Mohammed and his friends (sahaba) right? So the religion where Allah is You is no longer “islam”.

Despite that, I have not found any spiritual teachings so far In islam (as someone who spent 20 yrs as muslim); Prayers : are about some "physical exercices" with recitation of quran, nothing to do with what meditation is about (even though am a beginner).

Besides, I can guarantee that 99% of people who pray do not even stay mindfull while doing it. Not only that, but young people rarely pray nowdays. Practicing Islam is decreasing in the world of today individually and even collectively as many Middle east countries do not apply sharia laws.

I think that doing good publicity to islam can be dangerous, as many people who watched the video, will only take the “islam’s jidah is good” and keep their dogmas even more hard.

Mysticism in islam can only be found in rare groups such Sufism which is the mystical side of islam that can lead towards enlightenment (it includes retreats, long meditation : zikr, and hardcore praying). However, Suffists are a minority in islam and keep being threatened by the other majority of muslims.

In my opinion, the muslim countries today, are realizing that islam of 600AD cannot be applied today, extremism is rather decreasing overall

Raising muslim’s awareness would be effective by approaching it from a self help perspective, not a religious perspective as it will create more confusions. Of course, people wouldn’t want to meditate without 72 virgins, however the 72 virgins’s idea made  thousands of people killed around the world. And people still do that today unfortunately.

 

[Raymondo]

The problem is you are only looking on the outside of the religion and you don't look on the inside of it. Before this video was made, several Muslim friends I know who want to reach enlightenment was discussing this, a lot of them realized that their holy books words(the original words Mohammad wrote) is saying the same thing as enlightenment is saying which is why I got surprised when I saw the video

Not just Islam but every single religion, throw out everything you have learned from birth, every idea people imposed on you and look at the words again or ask yourself if you were born in a Muslim family you would most likely be a Muslim. So many things point to this direction and if you want to be open-minded and acknowledge this idea it is your own choice

Edited April 2, 2018 by Raymondo

[Leo Gura]

20 hours ago, Akim said:

In Abrahamic religions there is separation between God and human and material world. God creates humans and the world but is not them

No, that's only true of exoteric versions of any religion.

The esoteric core of every religion recognizes that God and world and self are all one. The problem is, most people just can't fathom it.

Jesus was God. How more nondual can you get? The kindgom of heaven is within he said.

Jewish Kabballah is nondual.

Sufism is nondual.

The separation only exists in the minds of the separated.

If God is infinite, how can you be separate from him? Lol. Infinite means EVERYTHING, including you!

[Akim]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, that's only true of exoteric versions of any religion.

The esoteric core of every religion recognizes that God and world and self are all one. The problem is, most people just can't fathom it.

Jesus was God. How more nondual can you get? The kindgom of heaven is within he said.

Jewish Kabballah is nondual.

Sufism is nondual.

The separation only exists in the minds of the separated.

If God is infinite, how can you be separate from him? Lol. Infinite means EVERYTHING, including you!

When we use the word God it has to mean something. For different people words mean different things. In your terminology they slice and map reality differently.

In Christianity: "God in Christianity is the eternal being who created and preserves all things. Christians believe God to be both transcendent (wholly independent of, and removed from, the material universe) and immanent (involved in the world).[2][3] Christian teachings of the immanence and involvement of God and his love for humanity exclude the belief that God is of the same substance as the created universe[4] but accept that God's divine Nature was hypostatically united to human nature in the person of Jesus Christ, in an event known as the Incarnation." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Christianity

What you are describing is Panteism "Pantheism is the belief that all reality is identical with divinity,[1] or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent god." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

In your language one could say different conceptual slicing of everything would create different interpretations of what the world is. Just saying that every religion is the same and it is all one at least robs the world of it richness.
Religions are maps of how to interpret and interact with the world. I am more familiar with Christianity for cultural reasons so I will speak about it.

In Christianity world that the human finds himself in is post catastrophe world. It is broken and the human is broken. But there is a way to restore yourself, you have to imitate Christ who is God and strive become him so to speak. There are different interpretations and rituals in different Christian branches. But there are basic common hierarchies of values. Truth is what human should strive for, lying and deceiving is what he should fight against. There are good qualities to develop and sins to fight with. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins. It is not "everything is one" worldview.
Christianity is a set complex systems that clearly have many historic influences and were developed and continue developing in different branches. But it does not look like it is unifying to me, it is more like diversifying with more and more new sects.

I don't think most Christians would agree that their religion is just a mix of pantheism and cultural archaic stupidity. It is at least a unique way to view the world where there is such entity as God which is not identical to material world.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Akim

[Girzo]

7 hours ago, Akim said:

God in Christianity is the eternal being who created and preserves all things.

7 hours ago, Akim said:

Pantheism is the belief that all reality is identical with divinity

Those two sentences describe the same thing, really. 

[Spinoza]

@Akim I agree with you the video is more an DIFFERENT interpretation of Islam, (there is thousands interpretation of islam in the world) some says that Sufi islam is the real islam by Muhammed but i don't think at all, I can read Arabic, when you read the Hadiths it doesn't sound like Sufi, for those who don't know much about Muhammed texts which is called "Hadiths" it's not a sort of deep wisdom like many muslims claim, i will pick a random hadiths and translate it .... (in fews seconds) 

Abu Huraira reported form some sources 

Muhammed Friend Said : We were in the company of Allah's Messenger that we heard a terrible sound.

The prophet Muhammed said: Do you know what sound is this? 

We said: Allah and His Messenger know best.

He said: That is a stone which was thrown seventy years before in Hell and it has been constantly slipping down and now it has reached its base.

From  Sahih Muslim 2844 (A Books were muslim learn what prophet Muhammed said) there is two major book the seconds called Sahih Bukhari

 

The classic muslim reaction: Ah those hadith are not necessarily true,.... but you know all islamic teachning are from hadith and not from Quran, for example the way how to pray in islam is from Muhammed Hadiths not from the Quran

I don't want to attack anyone and i'm not criticizing islam, i'm sharing my opinion why i don't see islam as a wise/deep religion, it's full of naive idea that cannot be believe nowday, people in the past believed in anything you tell them. and it contain many verse/speech that help people with power to control the crowd.

Many people don't know that in islam you are not supposed to say Hello to non-muslim, for those who are curious search on internet you will be suprised, PS: Muslim people nowday don't think that way because they don't even know this.

Most of good Hadith by Muhammed (Helping each other, giving money to poor...etc) are exclusively between muslim. it always say (the muslim and his brother) which mean muslim to muslim.

I may sound like a hater of islam but not at all. when i see people attacking muslim or islam with hatred, i see it like a very low conscious act and i definitely consider it as violence, most of muslim are muslim by name fortunately they don't practise islam word by word.