What's Your Opinion of Leo's Stance on Islam?

[Preetom]

I think most of our brains (those being in self actualization bubble for few years, independent thinkers) have rotted already with rationality, materialistic paradigms beyond a point of no return. Its almost impossible to study and rigorously practice a traditional religion because we wouldn't be able to place an innocent faith on any religion.

At best, these information and mild contemplation on various religion can intuit that all religions have the same core Truth. It can lead to a softened view towards others. While we keep going with the direct path of self inquiry/yoga

[AstralProjection]

As a universalist my bone to pick is with Muhammad first and foremost. The Koran isn't actually in chronological order, but if you actually read it in chronological order you would see that Muhammad first started out with good intentions but that as he gained power he became corrupt. At the end of his life he was a pedophile, murderer that hated the Jews. This video explains pretty good in part why I don't trust Muhammad. Some people have done very well taking his teachings and making something good out of it, that is great and all, but it's a no thank you for me. 

Who Killed Muhammad?

 

Leo twisted the the meanings of a lot of words in his video today. And yet as a universalist I understand his logic. But it's just too much of a stretch for me. It does a real disservice to people like Maajid Nawaz, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali who were once Muslims themselves and they are pushing for reform. Even moderate Islamic countries have real genuine problems. As bad as we have it in the west I wouldn't trade that for some Islamic country.

Edited April 1, 2018 by AstralProjection

[Joseph Maynor]

The variety of views is what impresses me.  People have such diverging views.  I think we tend to think people have more uniform beliefs than they actually do.  No!  People differ widely in their details as this conversation reveals.  The “difference model” is important to keep at hand.

Video on point to watch:

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[egoless]

@Leo Gura 

Edited April 1, 2018 by egoless

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Outer said:

@Leo Gura Why did you say that there isn't a distinction between lesser and greater Jihad, isn't talking of it, exactly making a distinction? What I wanted to hear was you saying that greater Jihad = Jihad, while lesser isn't Jihad?

Because even when engaging in the lower Jihad, as Sam Harris does, or the United States as a whole does, for example, it is still none other than fighting with oneself.

If everything is nondual, and all human beings are you, then who are you fighting with? Who you judging? All enemies are just projections of the ego.

The struggle is always with oneself, even if you trick yourself into thinking you are fighting some external enemy.

"We have seen the enemy, and he is us."

Self/other is one. God is always in a struggle with itself, that's all. The Lesser Jihad simply amounts to slapping yourself in the face, then getting upset, and slapping yourself back.

There really is no difference between igornance and walking the spiritual path. It's just a question of directness, which is a question of karma.

To find Allah, some people will have to blow themselves up. Because that is their karma. To find Allah, some people will have to waste 5 lifetimes debating, arguing, judging, doing violence, being politically active, etc.

Some people only wake up after enormous self-inflicted suffering or stupidity. Some people need to hit rock bottom before they are willing to surrender to Allah. But in the end, Allah will win over that ego. There is no escaping the Truth. The only question is, how long will you stall out the clock?

[Haumea]

Over the last year I've come around on Islam as my level of consciousness has increased.

Firstly, Mohammed's project was a vast improvement on the tribalism of the Arab people some dozen centuries ago. (Of course, his success in this was partial.  Arabs are still fairly tribal.  But it was a necessary and moderately successful undertaking by all accounts.)

This is something that probably escapes a lot of Islam's critics.  (BTW, same applies to Genghis Khan and his empire.)

Secondly, some very smart people have persuaded me that Islam is not unreformable.

And they were right: pay attention to the social and legal changes in the heart of Islam (Saudi Arabia.)

Women will have near-Western type equality with men within a decade.

They are doing something very smart: instead of inviting endless culture wars as we have now in the West, they are building cities with relaxed, Western-type laws and culture.  Localism is best, localism works, people need to stop trying to inflict their vision on one another.  Live and let live.

Allow for religious enclaves and liberal enclaves.  This is real diversity.

Iranian mullahs will likely be deposed within a year or two.

Iran is already fairly Western in outlook, so the reforms there may come even faster.

We're at the tail end of the radical Sunni Islamic extremism era that began post-Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, where the O.J.s (Original Jihadis) honed their chops;  roughly from early 1990s.

We are now in the mopping up phases.  ISIS is nearly toast; Hezbollah will be taken care of within a year or two.  You will get lone wolf (and maybe small group) attacks for awhile because there are now Jihadist breeding grounds in Europe, but eventually Europe will decide suicide is not the answer and proceed accordingly.

So I say we're done with it by 2025 or so. 

Quote

You're almost completely wrong. Ashkenazi Jews, which are European Jews, are in the positions of competence and authority because their group average IQ is 115, which is one standard deviation above the group average White. 

I would guess it's closer to 111, but that's still the highest of any group, and when you get to the higher edges (130+ and 140+) it really becomes out of proportion to the general population.

The reason for that is likely a form of what I call "literacy eugenics."  Ashkenazi Jews have been what some historians call "service nomads" throughout the last millenium or more (tax collectors, highly skilled tradesmen, physicians, merchants, etc.)  More IQ demanding professions than, e.g. farming.  (Especially math and verbal; visuospatial less so.) So there was likely a filtering process of those who couldn't hack it and had to leave the group.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Haumea

[abrakamowse]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

"We have seen the enemy, and he is us."

Pogo knew that...

 

 

[Sevi]

17 hours ago, herghly said:

I am still watching the video. Blown away by the courage Leo has to post the video

 

My respect has grown even more for Leo now.

Exactly my sentiments. This is really really brave of him, I'm almost worried about him, because it is the whole your reputation on the line especially when you touch those points where the society is way too conditioned. That's why most of the enlightened people keep their mouth shut: their words or wisdom won't penetrate through people's ears; will just evoke more defense.. it's really brave.

On the other hand, if someone doesn't bring the truth on the table, how come the purification of the society will be possible? Yet it is already way too toxic.. I don't know, it takes huge amount of guts.

16 hours ago, DoubleYou said:

The question I have is, how conscious are the modern day muslims of the non dualist nature of Islamic teachings? 

That's a proper question. The answer is, those ones are really rare. The majority is not really having the need to question cultural social conditionings and the core essence behind what is said thus the real meaning is somewhat lost. 

One of his videos, Leo mentions that we better question our medium/media no matter what; otherwise the default settings will take control over us though osmosis.. that is such a serious warning to take into account; but.. without having the need, seeing its importance.. it is nearly impossible. Even if we agree so; we are so sedated to take any action on that. But unfortunately there are consequences on that. As though @MarkusSweden is extreme about his approach, but still there is a point in there. On macro political field, there are active intentions which is what it is, but us being so unconscious, is not the way to go.. even if the intentions were all positive, every one can easily fall asleep and get into the ego traps..

How interesting that is; it is very difficult to differ such matters of spiritualism and existence from culture and politics.

So, if I answer the question of the thread, his stance is right on. Especially when you approach it from the enlightenment point of view -which is the primary reason of any religion or spiritual teaching-

I am so impressed that he could get through the core of it without being affected by the most of the dogma around it. Wish we all could have his radical open mindedness and this healthy and correct way of scepticism..

to have this very open and curious mind to understand and embrace existence at its highest octave would be one of the greatest gifts that we could give each other and ourselves..

Thank you @Leo Gura for setting such nice examples and models to look up to. It's a real gift of yours to our era and society at large.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Sevi

[Prabhaker]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

To find Allah, some people will have to blow themselves up.

Suicide can be used as an experiment in willpower, but normally people who commit suicide don't do it for that reason. For example, in the Jaina (Jainism) tradition death (Santhara) has also been used to strengthen willpower. 

Phowa, is the "the practice of conscious dying" in Vajrayāna Buddhism. 

[Spinoza]

I really enjoyed the video

As an ex-Muslim who grew up in a Muslim country, the definition of Islam by Leo isn't what they teach at the mosque, school or by society. and it's not what you find in Quran / Hadiths by Muhammad / Arabic Fiqh books. and i can tell you that MOST of muslims will be offended by Leo message.

The definition of islam which Leo gave is so similar to what some Sufi believe, which is a tolerant islam, more philosophical and less dogmatic, those Sufi are demonized by many other big Islamic leader (very known and followed by millions) 

Personally, i like this Sufi view, that Allah is inside us / some even believe that the Heaven (Janna) or the Hell (Jahannam) is symbolic and it's on earth, but it's not at all what islam is (according to Quran, Islamic books)

The language used in Islamic books is so direct, it's not a kind of poetry or ambiguous text, 

Muhammed taught (Compassion, helping poor, co-existence, and all the good value that we can find in other religions) but also at his time, If you say something bad about him they will kill you (and there is many stories about that)

As @AstralProjection said, Muhammad was peaceful at the beginning, then he turned to a dictator (If you read the Quran you will see that the first verses was peaceful (the Makki Quran) and the reste (Madani Quran) is violent, and it was when Mohammed become a leader with an army)

I think Muhammed tried his best at his time, and as Leo said, it's an Actualized.org version of 7th century. i think if we were at his environment we will have similar value, and if he were in 21th century he will be more wise. 

Before becoming a prophet, Muhammad was a friend with Waraka Ibn Nawfel who studied Judaism, and Christianity and maybe the first who translated the Bible into Arabic. And maybe Muhammad never existed (all what we have as informations are from books, there is not archaeologic evidence of his existence).

The big mistake in islam is "it cannot be changed, it's for all times, all places", this caused a lot of suffering

Maybe you don't know, Muslim people don't really read religious books and i think this is why they are not radical, and islam is more a culture than spirtuality, those who read many of them are very closed-minded 

Leo's video is so valuable and i think this kind of message can really help people to see beyond theirs closed mind, even it may chock many, but it's valuable for many people who have doubt in theirs faith,i don't think that it was the real definition of islam but it's definitely the explanation of what is the purpose of islam should be / how islam need to be understood.

Respect @Leo Gura

Edited April 2, 2018 by Spinoza

[Spinoza]

18 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

 In the end both religion and ideology are belief systems. As for terror in the name of Islam, I don't think the majority of muslims nor any Imam is behind those actions.

I can understand Arabic, and i can tell you there is a lot a lot of Imam who spread hatred and violence (many have television show, dedicated newspaper page..etc)

18 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

 I can really sympathise in some way with those who commit those crimes, because the western world have troubled them for very long. Muslims didn't interfere with our life in the west, but we destabilise not only Afghanistan and Syria, but Iraq and Syria as well.

I understand what you mean, but you may not know that the first victims of the radical islam are not the western, but the modern muslim, or the none-muslim who are born in a muslim country

Many muslim dream of a state under Allah rules. even those who drinks alcohol and don't pray.  in my country we lost 200 000 people in the 90's because of these radicals beliefs, they killed many intellectuals, artists. in these countries you cannot build church (you can find only old/historical church). you can't say that you are not muslim if you are born there.

I think that with internet, muslim are becoming more open minded then ever before

PS: I don't hate islam or muslims, i grew up with them, and i know how they thinks, i just wanted to say that there is also a complexe problem in muslims mentality without blaming anybody.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Spinoza

[Truth Addict]

@AstralProjection @Spinoza

Guys, I studied Mohammed's history very well, there's something very important when you study the history of Isslam and it is that you have to know the resources that are reliable and only pick facts from them. I can tell you easily that the image you have about Mohammed is completely false. Yes, the Qur'an shifted its language to violence later, but that was very specific and for special cases (battles), the problem came when dictators used the Qur'an for their own egos. They turned the "particular" into a "general". Therefore they invented what they call: "CALL FOR JIHAD" (conquest) which is something invented after Mohammed's death. The only jihad in Isslam (from the Qur'an itself) is the other kind of jihad which is called the: "JIHAD OF PROTECTION" which is completely valid. I'll talk more about that in the future and I'll give my evidence from the Qur'an itself.

P.S I'm an Arab.

[Emne]

@Spinoza You have very interesting insights! 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Emne

[abundance]

On 4/1/2018 at 7:01 AM, MarkusSweden said:

I really think Leo is brave to speak about this topic. And I like how he draw parallells to politics and ideology. In the end both religion and ideology are belief systems. As for terror in the name of Islam, I don't think the majority of muslims nor any Imam is behind those actions.

They are isolated happenings carried out by muslims without support from the religion. Also, I can really sympathise in some way with those who commit those crimes, because the western world have troubled them for very long. Muslims didn't interfere with our life in the west, but we destabilise not only Afghanistan and Syria, but Iraq and Syria as well. Those countries might not have been perfect countries in the past, but people in general felt safe and were somewhat happy. Today all of them are shitholes. 

Now, why is that you might ask. Here's why.. 

(Normally I stay away from discussing how politics/religion governs the world, since I believe it can upset people and also it has nothing to do with non duality, self inquiry, meditation and such. But since Leo open up for a discussion with this brave video, I will share my opinion on Islam and how (((other))) forces exploits Islam) 

This is the flat out truth.

Let me explain the Jew's role in the Islamic takeover. Jews carried out 9/11. They got our military to invade the mud people. When America sends in the military to destabilize the Middle East it works out in the Jew's favor. Because they don't have to fight themselves. They get to use Americans and Europeans to take out their enemies. The more of their enemies die the more land they can steal.

When the Islamic terrorists move in to America and Europe the Neo Con Jews get to set up a police state and ban free speech. Jews use cultural marxism to shame the white people into submission. It doesn't matter if a bunch of white women get raped. If you point that out then you are a racist. Commie Jews dumb down education so stupid kids are brainwashed into accepting any type of communism/socialism under multi-culturalism.

Retards accept this communist doctrine as being tolerant and loving while their airports and train stations are being blown up. If a Muslim kidnap a 12 year old girl and rape her to death then it's all good because mud people don't know any better. But if you point out their crimes then you are a racist. Stupid people will say "oh shit I better not look like a racist, I better let them ragheads blow up our infrastructure and rape our women."

After all we wanna be a tolerant society. Then all this fucking nonsense reaches a boiling point. And Americans and Europeans just wipe out all the Muslims. Once again the Jews win. And they get to set up a totalitarian police state to control the white people. Under an extreme left wing system they don't have to fear fascism like they did in Nazi Germany. Once again the Jews win. Everybody else loses or dies.

The Mud Invasion in Europe is only a means to an end. Jews don't want Islamic ragheads to move into Europe because they love ragheads and want equal opportunity for them. Jews want ragheads in Europe so they can be wiped out and it allows them to set up a fascist EU. Of course it will be fascist only for the Europeans. The money printing Jews and international corporations are above the law. Not a single banker has gone to jail under Obama. Even though they rig and manipulate every market known to man.

Israel hasn't taken in a single RapeUgee. How come they aren't racist? It's because they know better. And they don't want them in their country. They want the whites to suffer at the hand of Jihadis so white people can kill their enemies for them. And at the same time the mud vasion allows the Jews to destroy American and European culture.

They can destroy the borders, destroy national identity, and collapse their economies under a communist system. Weaken them to such a point to where they are no longer a threat to the Jews. Then the JEWS can reign supreme. They already control the governments, print the money, own all the media, and the education system. All they need now is to have us killing each other while they sit and laugh at us.

This is why Hitler took them out. Instead of using their intelligence for good, scheming Jews use their intellect to control and enslave humanity. This is why they are a threat to the human race and must be exterminated in Easy Jew Bake Ovens. 

 

For a second I had to remind myself that I was reading a post on Actualized.org and not Stormfront. 

LOL. Are you really promoting genocide on a forum centered around non-dualistic teachings? 

In all seriousness though, I liked Leos video. Most of the Muslims I know do not hold extremist views (as far as I know) but most are pretty far from practicing Islam based on the core meaning of what Islam is all about. However, this exists in almost EVERY practiced religion. It almost seems instinctual for the human mind to pollute anything and everything with egotism/materialisn, even when it comes to true spirituality.

[Spinoza]

@Truth Addict

Islam is part of our history, we should not develop hatred against who follow it, but i think when we talk about islam, we must be honest with ourselves and admit that it's the product of his time, we can keep the good things and delete verse and hadiths that are controversial.

Ps: A lot of people including muslims don't know that many islamic pratices were years before Muhammad in Arabian peninsula, many practice were not new to them (The good and the bad) 

[AxelK]

@MarkusSweden  I truly feel nothing but sorry for you, i'm not even mad. I have jewish relatives that died in concentration camps and i can promise you that they were just normal people having normal lives, not like the crazy conspiracy theories you peddle.

 

I'm pretty sure your beliefs have very little to do with jews but more to do with something inside yourself. Perhaps you should focus working on that instead of spreading hatred.

Edited April 2, 2018 by AxelK

[hundreth]

2 hours ago, AxelK said:

@MarkusSweden  I truly feel nothing but sorry for you, i'm not even mad. I have jewish relatives that died in concentration camps and i can promise you that they were just normal people having normal lives, not like the crazy conspiracy theories you peddle.

 

I'm pretty sure your beliefs have very little to do with jews but more to do with something inside yourself. Perhaps you should focus working on that instead of spreading hatred.

It was only a matter of time. It's sad, this is what many people truly believe about Jews. 

[Matt8800]

19 hours ago, Spinoza said:

 

Leo's video is so valuable and i think this kind of message can really help people to see beyond theirs closed mind, even it may chock many, but it's valuable for many people who have doubt in theirs faith,i don't think that it was the real definition of islam but it's definitely the explanation of what is the purpose of islam should be / how islam need to be understood.

Respect @Leo Gura

As an ex-Muslim, would you mind expanding on why you think Leo's video is valuable? 

I was indoctrinated by Christianity at a young age and it took me many years to undo the delusion before I could search for the Truth. Anyone that thinks religion is a great way to find god has never had to untangle all the dogma, delusion and confusion that it caused.

I dont understand why Leo's take on what the interpretation of Islam should be, while ignoring what it currently is, is helpful to anyone. Even if it was relevant to discuss what Islam (or Christianity) should be, even the most cherry-picked interpretations are sorely inadequate compared to Buddhism or Yoga.

Saying that religion is a great way to find spirituality is like saying a life sentence in prison is a great way to get food and shelter. There might be a couple benefits but its the other stuff that is the problem and the other stuff is hard to separate.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Matt8800

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, Matt8800 said:

Saying that religion is a great way to find spirituality is like saying a life sentence in prison is a great way to get food and shelter.

You nailed it bro!

[Truth Addict]

10 hours ago, Spinoza said:

@Truth Addict

Islam is part of our history, we should not develop hatred against who follow it, but i think when we talk about islam, we must be honest with ourselves and admit that it's the product of his time, we can keep the good things and delete verse and hadiths that are controversial.

Ps: A lot of people including muslims don't know that many islamic pratices were years before Muhammad in Arabian peninsula, many practice were not new to them (The good and the bad) 

Yes it is history, and I want to know the facts. Beliefs are beliefs.

And no, we can't delete verses or hadiths because that would be a distortion of the real history. And actually there are no controversial verses, I would bet on that. But you can find a lot of nonsense hadiths that are not originally said by Mohammed. If you want the most reliable references of Isslam, I recommend only the Qur'an and what's called the forty hadiths of al Nawawi (الأربعين النووية).

Here are some examples from the forty hadiths:

Mohammed said:

1) "None of you is a true believer if he does not like to his brother as much as he likes for himself".

2) "Allah said: whoever fights my servants is involved in war with Me. Nothing is more pleasant to God than what He ordered his servants to do. And a servant keeps reaching God with voluntary work (prayers and fasting, etc..) till I (Allah) love him. And when I love someone I become his ears by which he hears, and his eyes by which he sees, and his hand by which he grasps, and his foot by which he walks. And if he ever asked for anything from me, he'll absolutely get it, and if he ever asked for my protection, he'll absolutely have it".

3) "Be in this realm like a stranger, or a passenger".

You see how these words are full of wisdom. And as Leo once said: "Conscious people never lie".

Edited April 3, 2018 by Truth Addict