Is pain the only way to freedom?

[Frylock]

No one became enlightened through happiness, right?

[Prabhaker]

3 hours ago, Frylock said:

No one became enlightened through happiness, right?

No miserable person can became enlightened. Meditation is not for the suffering type. 

An unhappy person can practice some technique to prepare ground for meditation but technique is not meditation. Meditation happens , you can't practice it.

[Kisame]

It's true that a lot of the traditional practices involve excruciatingly long sits, ice baths, sun dances, and other ordeals that would qualify as torture, if not undertaken voluntarily for the purposes of spiritual purification.

It's also true that some of the more famous awakened individuals arrived at their insight in moments of extreme emotional duress, like Eckhart Tolle who awakened in a fit of suicidal self-loathing, or Ramana Maharshi who had his enlightenment experience while in the grip of a paralyzing fear of death.

On the other hand, the Daoist literature and other esoteric erotic traditions teach that proper cultivation of sexual and orgasmic energies can lead to awakening as well, whether done alone or with a partner.

I don't see any inherent reason why pain is more likely to lead to enlightenment than pleasure, except that pain is simply the more practical and available tool. You can induce extreme pain in pretty much any body part whenever you want, often using means that won't induce permanent damage and require little set-up (e.g. ice baths, or via ridiculously long sits with no movement), whereas the mindful cultivation of pleasure is much more limited physiologically (most guys can only experience the heights of pleasure in their genitals) and requires far more discipline to properly pull off (for example, the Daoists heavily emphasize semen retention, so if you're trying to masturbate yourself to enlightenment and accidentally blow your load, you won't be able to fully "recharge" for a few days--compare this to ice baths, which you can do any time you want).

[Joseph Maynor]

Think about this.  How much pain are you in for if you don’t work on personal development?  You can see that pain on the faces and bodies of people all around you.  

Edited March 30, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

Ego has co-opted the pleasure/pain mechanism. It uses those two signals to maintain its power and stay alive.

"Pain" is just anything which violates the ego's self-defined boundary. So, of course the process of dissolving all boundaries is not likely to be labeled as "pleasant" by the ego.

[Markus]

Some pain is quite likely unavoidable in the process. Could be little, could be a lot - depending on what you do and what your karma is.

[AlwaysBeNice]

Usually people need decades of unsatisfied painful living to make the change that goes against the norm of culture and fear. Actually lifetimes. 

That's why I think, and in my case was, and still is, very helpful to get glimpses so you know what you  

Which at the beginning were caused by psychedelics for me, which show you the load of shit you keep dragging yourself in, and show you maybe a taste of freedom, if you're not too caught up in your theory fantasies.

[Nahm]

@Frylock Entirely subjective. ❤️ It’s up to you. Self deception is at play either way, but, subjective. 

[RichardY]

10 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

No miserable person can became enlightened. Meditation is not for the suffering type.

What is?

10 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

 An unhappy person can practice some technique to prepare ground for meditation but technique is not meditation. Meditation happens , you can't practice it.

Technique such as?

-------------

 

[Dovahkiin]

8 hours ago, Outer said:

There's also reflexes which are beyond the ego, that react to pain. If we want to extend the definition of pain to stuff like that.

Reflexes like what?

[student]

When you are born you are automatically presented to misery, ignorance. This is what this "sphere" is all about. By disembarrassing yourself from the causes of your pain, by letting go, you will rediscover yourself. As you become conscious you will get the "enlightenment", the clarity actually.

[Guest Quanty]

You can feel pain as a woman in labor and still be happy, because you know that you grow, and the physical will re-route with the natural way.

 

Namaste, Mfks!

[Prabhaker]

16 hours ago, RichardY said:

Technique such as?

Technique such as Vipassana or sitting silently, doing nothing and watching thoughts is practiced by us, this prepares ground for meditation. Meditation happens on its own accord, it never happens to a miserable person. 

Jesus was crucified , but he was not miserable even on a cross he was full of compassion. Enlightenment happens to the people who do not suffer even if they are crucified.

[Torkys]

Remember that pain and suffering aren't the same thing.

suffering = pain × resistance

1 / suffering = freedom

Pain does not create suffering by itself, resistance is the multiplier. So no, pain by itself isn't the way to freedom, releasing resistance is. If you torture yourself for 10 hours straight, the pain itself won't liberate you, it's the surrender to it that will.

Also, see this post where we discussed a very similar position:

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Torkys

[StephenK]

@Torkys I've noticed that when I focus on some unpleasant sensation (anxiety for instance), the actual anxiety is nothing more than a vibrational tone within the body; absent a narrative about it, it just 'is'. The suffering, as you say, comes about when the mind says: "this is unpleasant/i don't want this". What then actually differentiates pain from say a neutral sensation?

[Torkys]

30 minutes ago, StephenK said:

the actual anxiety is nothing more than a vibrational tone within the body

I have never experienced vibrations - seems like alot of possibilities are ruled out just because of this fact. I will observe an unpleasant sensation next time it arises - thank you so much for telling me for to experience vibrations.

32 minutes ago, StephenK said:

What then actually differentiates pain from say a neutral sensation?

Pain threatens your body/identity.

[StephenK]

2 minutes ago, Torkys said:

I have never experienced vibrations - seems like alot of possibilities are ruled out just because of this fact. I will observe an unpleasant sensation next time it arises - thank you so much for telling me for to experience vibrations.

I mean vibrational in the sense that the sensation ebbs and flows (pulsates almost).

2 minutes ago, Torkys said:

Pain threatens your body/identity.

So if the identity of the body was gone, the experience of pain would be neutral?

[Torkys]

1 minute ago, StephenK said:

So if the identity of the body was gone, the experience of pain would be neutral?

I have experienced this - even though I am still identified with my body.

"Oh, this sensation supposed to be painful."

"This supposed to hurt but I am not resistant to this anymore"

- I have said these to myself multiple times

[StephenK]

@Torkys Interesting. I haven't experienced this fully. Did you get to this state through meditation?