Are Yoga's Claims Credible?

[Matt8800]

As someone that has had several enlightenment experiences, I have experienced the reality of the metaphysical. I fully understand that truth > whats provable.

As someone that has invested a fair amount of time studying Epistemology, I try to balance open-mindedness with healthy skepticism. I have spent quite a bit of time studying Buddhism but was fairly unfamiliar with Yoga. When I saw Leo's video, I bought the book about Kriya Yoga and I also bought the book, "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Paramahansa Yogananda. Yogananda is  considered a prominent figure in Kriya Yoga and generally considered an authority on the subject. I bought the book because I wanted to see if I could get a sense of of credibility.

In the autobiography, Yogananda makes many claims of things like levitation, foretelling the future, mind reading, commanding events to happen, etc. These things happen throughout his life as if they are a normal every day occurrence, from the time he was a child. To me, this seemed to indicate that Kriya Yoga contained, at least some, untrue claims.

Kriya Yoga makes claims about Chakras, Kundalini energy, etc. Some schools of yoga claim there are 12 chakras and some say 7. They also cannot agree on the "colors" of the chakras. Kriya makes a claim that once a certain level of meditation is reached, one may see a white star surrounded by a blue circle, which is surrounded by a yellow circle. I have enough experience with psychedelics that I know that interpretations of images are highly subjective so I am skeptical that everyone would see the exact same thing, as described, in an altered state of consciousness (through meditation). 

Why dont Buddhists believe in chakras, levitation, mind reading, etc? Would someone claim that Buddhists are less enlightened? While I agree that there are many Yogis that seem to be enlightened, it is also important to acknowledge that some gurus demand that their egos are fed by their devoted disciples not to mention all to common sexual abuse. 

I suspect that Yoga has an advantage with the breathing techniques but a disadvantage with dogma, superstition and human worship (of gurus). If this is true, I think it is important to know what tools one can appropriate and what claims lead to delusion.

Here is a test:

Scientology claims that one must follow the instructions of the church to clear oneself of thetans. Scientologists believe that when a person dies—or, in Scientology terms, when a thetan abandons its physical body—they go to a "landing station" on the planet Venus, where the thetan is re-implanted and told lies about its past life and its next life. The Venusians take the thetan, "capsule" it, and send it back to Earth to be thrown into the ocean off the coast of California. 

What methodology would one use to determine that the thetan claims are unsubstantiated/unreasonable and Yoga's claims of astral projection, chakras, levitation, etc are substantiated and reasonable?

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Matt8800
run on sentence, clarification

[Aimblack]

The main difference is that you can just do the exercises yourself and see.I dunno siddhis though.

I mean Buddhists believe in reincarnation, deity yoga and Tibetan Buddhism apparently let you become a literal deity by channeling it's characteristics and praying to it and stuff.  

By the way siddhis are a thing in buddhism as well. My personal take on it is to not waste too much time thinking about what is real and what isn't.

I just do my practice and as long as I am progressing that is enough.

[Prabhaker]

1 hour ago, Matt8800 said:

Some schools of yoga claim there are 12 chakras and some say 7. They also cannot agree on the "colors" of the chakras.

The number differs with each individual. One may have seven, one may have nine; one may have more, one may have less. That is the reason why so many different traditions have developed. The more you go in, the more individual you are. 

1 hour ago, Matt8800 said:

Why dont Buddhists believe in chakras

It is not necessary to pass through chakras. One can just bypass them. It is also not necessary that you will feel kundalini before enlightenment. The phenomenon is very different from what you may think. Kundalini is not felt because it is rising; kundalini is only felt if you do not have a very clear passage. If the passage is completely clear-cut, then the energy flows but you cannot feel it. You feel it when there is something there that resists the flow. If the energy flows upward and you have blocks in the passage, only then do you feel it. So the person who feels more kundalini is really blocked: there are many blocks in the passage, so the kundalini cannot flow.

When there is resistance, then the kundalini is felt. You cannot feel energy directly unless there is resistance. If kundalini moves and there are no blocks, then you will never feel any chakras. That is why someone may feel nine chakras, someone else may feel ten chakras, and someone else may feel only three or four, or one, or none.

1 hour ago, Matt8800 said:

Yogananda makes many claims of things like levitation, foretelling the future, mind reading, commanding events to happen, etc.

 

[Matt8800]

19 minutes ago, Aimblack said:

The main difference is that you can just do the exercises yourself and see.I dunno siddhis though.

I mean Buddhists believe in reincarnation, deity yoga and Tibetan Buddhism apparently let you become a literal deity by channeling it's characteristics and praying to it and stuff.  

By the way Siddhis are a thing in buddhism as well. My personal take on it is to not waste too much time thinking about what is real and what isn't.

I just do my practice and as long as I am progressing that is enough.

Actually, there is some evidence that would indicate that reincarnation is real. I have read the studies by Ian Stevenson on reincarnation, the critiques of Stevenson's work and the critiques of the critiques. For this reason, I feel that a belief, or at least a suspicion, in reincarnation is reasonable.

I think there can be some good that can come sometimes from taking spiritual direction from people on faith but I think caution and a healthy dose of skepticism should be exercised to avoid getting off-track. Even in the Kriya book that Leo recommends, the author claims that his spiritual development was hindered by following false teachers and beliefs.

[Matt8800]

15 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

The number differs with each individual. One may have seven, one may have nine; one may have more, one may have less. That is the reason why so many different traditions have developed. The more you go in, the more individual you are. 

It is not necessary to pass through chakras. One can just bypass them. It is also not necessary that you will feel kundalini before enlightenment. The phenomenon is very different from what you may think. Kundalini is not felt because it is rising; kundalini is only felt if you do not have a very clear passage. If the passage is completely clear-cut, then the energy flows but you cannot feel it. You feel it when there is something there that resists the flow. If the energy flows upward and you have blocks in the passage, only then do you feel it. So the person who feels more kundalini is really blocked: there are many blocks in the passage, so the kundalini cannot flow.

When there is resistance, then the kundalini is felt. You cannot feel energy directly unless there is resistance. If kundalini moves and there are no blocks, then you will never feel any chakras. That is why someone may feel nine chakras, someone else may feel ten chakras, and someone else may feel only three or four, or one, or none.

 

There may be something to Kundalini. Maybe its possible that mine isnt blocked. I have invested myself heavily in spiritual development for about a year and have made huge progress.

Yoga teaches the concept of reaching a state of Samadhi when someone has sufficiently evolved in their meditation practice. I initially combined DMT and meditation to learn how to reach samadhi. I can now reach Samadhi almost every time I meditate without the help of psychedelics. 

Yogas mention and description of Samadhi, and my experience of it, leads me to believe that Yoga has some valuable teachings. With that said, I think one should use caution with determining truth.

[Aimblack]

@Matt8800 Nobody is telling you to have faith or believe, only to  suspend your judgment until after a while of doing kriya or kundalini yoga. then you can still stop and make up your mind.

[Matt8800]

27 minutes ago, Aimblack said:

@Matt8800 Nobody is telling you to have faith or believe, only to  suspend your judgment until after a while of doing kriya or kundalini yoga. then you can still stop and make up your mind.

Yes, I agree with that. I am approaching with an open mind but trying to balance with a healthy skepticism. 

My purpose for this thread is to try to suss out what aspects of Kriya are helpful on the journey to enlightenment and what aspects are a distraction or detour. I think both aspects exist within yoga.

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Matt8800 said:

Why dont Buddhists believe in chakras, levitation, mind reading, etc?

Of course they do. Just not the mainstream westernized Buddhists you hear about.

The Dalai Lama has a personal oracle as one of his advisors. Sadhguru actively tells his advanced yogis not to practice siddhis or perform healings or miracles because it would create a PR nightmare for his organization.

Many enlightened masters have such abilities but will not tell you about them because you would not understand, and because it will distract you from working on your awakening.

You have to understand, people get killed for talking or exhibiting such abilities. There is a huge stigma against witchcraft, even today. Look at how Osho's commune was erradicated. That's what will happen to you when start flaunting spirituality around ignorant people.

Sadhguru was accused of murdering his wife after her supposed mahasamadhi. He was also accused of holding people captive and brainwashing them by parents who didn't understand what yoga is.

Almost every spiritual tradition has deep esoteric teachings which are kept secret and never penetrates mainstream culture because mainstream culture is so closedminded and materialisitic.

These are very advanced things which are not discussed with closedminded people.

I am not saying everything they claim is true, but you'd be surprised how much truth there is in esoteric teachings.

Yogananda's biography is very fantastical. It's not a good resource for skeptical rationalist western minds. For you to understand the things he talks about requires someone like me to break it down into a western anatyical paradigm. Which takes a lot of work and people still don't buy it.

If you really care about understanding siddhis and paranormal abilities, you must spent years practicing them. The proof is in practices.

Spend 5 years doing hardcore yoga and then you'll have a better understanding of the possibilites here.

Kriya yoga's primary intention is unlocking your chakras and liberation, not siddhis. So don't get stuck on all the fantasical stuff. Focus on awakening.

P.S. The deepest truth is so incredible, it will kill you.

[Matt8800]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I am not saying everything they claim is true, but you'd be surprised how much truth there is in esoteric teachings.

Spend 5 years doing hardcore yoga and then you'll have a better understanding of the possibilites here.

 

@Leo Gura

That is what I will do then. I think understanding that maybe not every claim is true is a healthy approach.

My life purpose is to develop myself to the highest spiritual level I can before I die and help others do the same. I invest 3-4 hours a day in meditation and reading to that end. If Yoga is as powerful of a tool as many claim, I cant afford to pass it by. 

[Prabhaker]

13 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

If Yoga is as powerful of a tool as many claim

Yoga means union, the science of union. Meditation is the most supreme phenomenon as far as union with reality is concerned. Meditation is the god of yoga. But yoga has fallen into wrong hands, and not only recently – for centuries it has been in the wrong hands.

The original fault must be with the founder, Patanjali himself. Patanjali has divided yoga into eight parts. His division is clear-cut, very scientific, but he was not really aware of human stupidity. He started with the body – and that's the right way to start. The first part of yoga must be physiological because man lives on the circumference, in the body, so the work has to start there, only then can it reach the mind. And when one has gone beyond the body and beyond the mind, then the third, meditation, happens.

So according to Patanjali the first part belongs to the body. But he was not clearly aware that millions of people would remain entangled with the first part. Hence yoga has become synonymous with yoga postures: people standing on their heads and doing all sorts of contortions. That has become synonymous with yoga.

It is not a true yoga, it is just the preface, the introductory part; and the person who thinks the introduction is the whole book is idiotic. But Patanjali did not warn people. If he had warned people it would have been better. People like Patanjali believe in others' intelligence – which is not there! They trust. Their trust is immense, their trust is as immense as people's stupidity is! They respect people's intelligence. So he did not warn people, but the warning was absolutely necessary: 'Don't get entangled in the physiological part.'

A few people, only very few – if a hundred people become interested in yoga then only one person will get out of the physiological entanglement. And that one person will become entangled in the psychological. If a hundred persons are entangled in the psychological then only one person gets out of it...and only when you get out of the mind does the real yoga begin.

Osho, Nirvana: Now or Never 

[Joseph Maynor]

What does Yoga claim?  What criterion are we using to judge credibility?  Is credibility even relevant?  Exactly what factors are relevant in assessing Yoga?  What is Yoga trying to do?  Is there even one Yoga?  If not, what Yoga are we talking about?

Edited March 28, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Lynnel]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course they do. Just not the mainstream westernized Buddhists you hear about.

The Dalai Lama has a personal oracle as one of his advisors. Sadhguru actively tells his advanced yogis not to practice siddhis or perform healings or miracles because it would create a PR nightmare for his organization.

 

I've read about siddhis a bit and I agree with Yogananda that spirituality is not to become a circus. But I'm very interested in the healing aspect and developping some sort of healing powers. I've read there are no siddhis that are related to healing so I'm very curious about it.

Of course I'm getting a shit storm of visuals when meditating - it almost feels like meditation is the water test in HunterxHunter a way to know which "powers" you can potentially develop.

[Matt8800]

18 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

What does Yoga claim?  What criterion are we using to judge credibility?  Is credibility even relevant?  Exactly what factors are relevant in assessing Yoga?  What is Yoga trying to do?  Is there even one Yoga?  If not, what Yoga are we talking about?

Kriya Yoga claims that, if the techniques and principles are practiced as described, it is a potent catalyst of spiritual growth. As to the definition of what spiritual growth is, I would defer to Leo's videos or any number of relevant resources.

While many may differ in opinion in what makes claims "credible", I think credibility is important to some degree if one is considering devoting resources.

The aspects of credibility I am considering are the sources. For example, if someone claimed to have a pet unicorn, maybe other claims they make should be more rigorously scrutinized.

Regardless, I acknowledge that just because some claims of siddhis appear suspect, that does not mean that everything Kriya Yoga prescribes is of no value. I plan on delving further into Kriya Yoga with an open mind. Since Kriya Yoga involves knowledge and expertise on chakras, I have also bought some books to study more about chakras so I can understand it better.

An open mind of an independent thinker should always be balanced with healthy skepticism or one will be vulnerable to delusion. Without healthy skepticism, otherwise intelligent people believe that people sometimes fly on winged horses (Muhammad), human sacrifice is sometimes effective (Jesus), virgins give birth (Mary), an angry, petty deity obsesses about the potential genital misuse by a specific species of ape, etc, etc.

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by Matt8800

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Lynnel said:

I've read there are no siddhis that are related to healing so I'm very curious about it.

You've been reading some bad stuff.

Healing siddhis are some of the most common and credible of siddhis.

You can find healers all over Yelp. This isn't rocket science. I have interacted with people who have healing abilities. It's quite common in spiritual circles. I even hired healers to work on me.

I have even experienced healing myself a bit during one LSD trip.

You can definitely develop this ability if you really wanted to.

But without enlightenment you will likely abuse/misuse any siddhis you develop. So be careful. The potential for Zen Devilry here is great. Don't give spirituality a bad name.

[Vingger]

@Leo Gura Describe that healing moment please

[Staples]

@Vingger I think he's talking about his experiencing physical death trip report.

[who chit]

Why are you interested in practicing Kriya? This should be addressed first. If it is for siddhis or experiences or to be more "special" than others then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Most likely, if it doesn't give you what you want ,you'll quit anyway. Experiences won't last forever,they come and go, and you'll just end up where you are now. Kriya is a spiritual practice to help you realize what you and reality,truly are.That is it's purpose. Be careful not to treat it as some new toy or hobby for the ego to  play with and throw away when it get's bored or feels it's not getting what it wants.

[Matt8800]

15 hours ago, who chit said:

Why are you interested in practicing Kriya? This should be addressed first. If it is for siddhis or experiences or to be more "special" than others then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Most likely, if it doesn't give you what you want ,you'll quit anyway. Experiences won't last forever,they come and go, and you'll just end up where you are now. Kriya is a spiritual practice to help you realize what you and reality,truly are.That is it's purpose. Be careful not to treat it as some new toy or hobby for the ego to  play with and throw away when it get's bored or feels it's not getting what it wants.

I have little interest in siddhis or experiences. Seeking siddhis is egoic, which I feel can be counterproductive.  I have had tons of profound experiences on my journey without kriya. I am interested in achieving as much sustained spiritual growth as possible until the day I die. I view kriya as a possible tool to investigate.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Matt8800

[Matt8800]

Since I am the one that started this thread, I wanted to add a comment...

When I first watched the video, my curiosity was piqued. I bought the book and started reading and also got Biography of a Yogi, since it was referenced in the book. My skepticism grew as I read the books, which is why I started this thread. I wasnt claiming Kriya did not have credibility; I was questioning the credibility so I could get different perspectives on the concerns I voiced. 

Since I started the thread, I re-watched the video and found that Leo did an good job of addressing the concerns I have expressed here. I didnt catch it the first time, as I wasnt looking for it since the concerns hadnt developed yet.

I am going to continue a serious investigation into Kriya, along with the theory of chakras. 

Even through my skepticism, I have found the breathing techniques a valuable addition to my meditation practice.

[Leo Gura]

@Matt8800 Stop reading Yoganada and just do the practices. They are very direct and pragmatic, without any metaphysical mumbo-jumbo.

The whole issue is, spirituality must be directly practiced, not talked about or debated. The more practice you do, the faster all of your questions and doubts will be addressed. And you will feel so much better.

Read only as many books as you need to convince yourself to do serious practice.