How do you use Vipassana to have an enlightment experience?

[Seeker10304]

I have seen Leo commenting that Vipassana can be used to attain enlightment (or at least have an enlightment experience), my questions is how exactly?
I read the comment about using it to self inquiry, so what I am thinking is using Vipassana normally for 20-30 minutes and then self inquiring for 20-30 minutes or can you self inquiry in a different vipassana way? Any opinions?

Some further details:

I started meditating from youtube videos, and then followed eckhart tolles advice (listening to silence), then read Choqyam Trungpa and started meditating on my breath. At that point (3 years ago) I actually had a Satori that almost lasted for a day while reading his book spiritual materialism. After that I found Leo main video about enlightment and experimented with all his suggested techniques ( I have been a viewer for around 2 years). Some worked pretty well like doing nothing and strong determination sitting, but I eventually returned to following the breath Trungpa style. I also did self inquiry but I found the time required (even only 40 minutes) too much combined with a 20 minutes meditation session. Recently I saw a video and tried doing vipassana and the two times i have tried it worked really really well for me, so that's why I am asking.

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Seeker10304

[robdl]

Interesting to note Papaji's perspective on vipassana/insight meditation from a self-inquiry perspective:

Q: What is your comment on insight meditation?

Papaji: The observer has to observe something, such as the breath.  What you observe is through the mind.  So whatever is gained through the observation is only mental.  Who is the observer? The observer is not tackled, only the observed, the object of the senses.

Q: For insight meditation there are four objects of the mind: body, feelings, thought, and sense world objects.  As you point out, there is no inquiry into the observer who seems to stand outside of all of this.  Where does the person go from here?

Papaji:To whom does the body belong? To whom do the feelings belong? To whom to the thoughts belong? To whom do the objects belong? The body has no capacity to be enlightened because it is nothing but earth, air, fire, water. To arrive at freedom we reject the body. We also reject the feelings, thoughts, and objects.  What happens if we reject all this? Who is capable of rejecting all these things? One is neither body, feelings, thoughts, nor objects. All this is due to Self.  You can reject everything, but can you reject 'I'?

 

[onacloudynight]

@Seeker10304  Attain the 4th jhana or whatever highest jhana you can, come out of it and start your insight practice. Tune into the impermanent, unsatisfactory, and selfless nature of all the sensations in your sensory field. An easy way to do this is to pay attention to the arising and passing away of body sensations, feelings, thoughts etc. Once you gain enough mindfulness, you will be able to clearly see the three characteristics that make up all of reality. With enough practice that should lead to enlightenment. Might take several years though.

Edited March 26, 2018 by onacloudynight

[Leo Gura]

Do 10 full days of rigorous, nonstop Vipassana, and you'll have your enlightenment experience.

If that fails, do 10 more days.

The power of these techniques really only shines with 100+ hours of continuous practice. Which is why most meditators will never acheive enlightenment.

You need to start doing week-long retreats. That is the simple secret of all the sages: they meditate for very long stretches of time without distraction, family, relationships, social commitments, or work.

Yoga is more effective for "householders" than Vipassana.

[Recursoinominado]

@onacloudynight great answer right there 

 

@Leo Gura I also find that vipassana shines only in long retreats, I would say 30 days or more 

[Dovahkiin]

@Leo Gura To what extent is going monk-mode like you describe more effective than 2 hours of vipassana a day while being very much a householder (long-term relationship, involved and time-consuming life purpose, self-development junkie, etc)? The 2h/day plan would include a few retreats a year like you've previously recommended.

 

Goenke seems to think it's totally feasible, but how great to you consider the disadvantage to be in terms of pursuing enlightenment? Are we talking monk's 1 year = HH's 10 years? HH's 50 years? HH's 5 lifetimes?

 

If you can't tell there's a lot my ego isn't ready to give up, which is an obstacle in itself.

[herghly]

@Dovahkiin  Meditating 2 hours a day at home can not be compared with doing a retreat. At the retreat its silence for 10 days , you can not talk for the 10 days (unless to ask questions regarding the technique).  This is a HUGE part of the retreat and should not be underestimated

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Dovahkiin said:

@Leo Gura To what extent is going monk-mode like you describe more effective than 2 hours of vipassana a day while being very much a householder (long-term relationship, involved and time-consuming life purpose, self-development junkie, etc)? The 2h/day plan would include a few retreats a year like you've previously recommended.

Goenke seems to think it's totally feasible, but how great to you consider the disadvantage to be in terms of pursuing enlightenment? Are we talking monk's 1 year = HH's 10 years? HH's 50 years? HH's 5 lifetimes?

If you can't tell there's a lot my ego isn't ready to give up, which is an obstacle in itself.

It's hard to become deeply enlightened as a householder unless you got some special tricks up your sleeve, like powerful yogic techniques or psychedelics or something.

The disadvantage is probably 10:1 to 20:1. If this wasn't the case, there would be no point in becoming a monk.

If you went at enlightenment full-time, hardcore, you could probably do it in 1-2 years. Although who really knows. These are just guestimates and everyone is different.

#1 factor in enlightenment seems to be undivided focus for long periods of time. Which is a rare thing these days. Which is why so few people get enlightened. Unnatural periods of focus are usually required.

5 hours ago, Stenne said:

Hmm so If I do like 45 min of vipassana a Day it wil have no effect?

It will have effect. But not likely to produce enlightenment.

[Erlend K]

I'm not sure what an "Enlightenment experience" is. Is it the same as Path/Fruit/Streamentry? Or is it more like the higher Jhana states where you experience unification of awareness and feeling at one with all nature and existence?

If you want interesting experiences like Jhana, this is easier acchieved by samatha than by vipassana. Like Leo mentioned if these intense experiences are your main goal you might be better of doing some psychedelic.

If your goal is Path/Fruit/Streamentry, Vipassana is probably your best choise. 45 min/day is not an effective way of reaching it tho. Most householders who reash this point do so in retreat. For most people, 45 min/day will not result in the extreme level of concentration and mindfulness required to reach stream entry.

[cirkussmile]

Don't forget strong determination sitting. That's the core of the technique.

1 hour sittings and I highly recommend doing a 10 day retreat to get established in the technique.

[Seeker10304]

@Leo Gura So 10 days retreat eh? I am not even aware of any retreats in my country and I don't think I am in a point in my life where I can do this. 
And even with 2 hours per day which seems very hardcore to me, its not doable in less than a decade.

Just out of curiosity do you think you will get faster results with self inquiry or its about the same?

Strong determination sitting is the core of Vipassana? I though it was a technique pretty much applicable to any other technique which is basically use it for a long period of time (1hour+) and dont move, at all.

Elrend K I think its "experience" of no self, though from Leo's videos I understand there layers even to that. 

Thanks everyone for replying, including onecloudynight, robdl and Recursoinomina!

 

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Seeker10304

[Sev]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's hard to become deeply enlightened as a householder unless you got some special tricks up your sleeve, like powerful yogic techniques or psychedelics or something.

 

Do you think such techniques does exist? I mean that some special secret technique in itself can have so huge value? It seems now that your recipe to enlightenment work includes real yoga besides contemplation/self-Inquiry/meditation.

[bslpiontds]

@Seeker10304

You don't have to start with 10-day retreat, build up your meditation skills slowly by starting off with daily practice and (important) with 3-7 day retreats. I have tried 3-day vipassana retreat once, and I'll be doing another this week. (The benefits are fantastic!) 

In my experience required for an "enlightenment experience/awakening" is: a still mind, which is acquired by long periods of concentration practice, (focusing on breath) 
When you have concentration developed, you can do insight practice more effectively and gain insight into No-self, Impermanence & Suffering. Which will be very enlightening experiences.

[bslpiontds]

@Sev

Of course, you can become enlightened by meditation/contemplation/inquiry. But for such experiences to occur, the setting always has to be: long periods of diligent/focused practice without distraction, therefore retreats is recommended. 

[Dovahkiin]

On 3/26/2018 at 9:35 PM, herghly said:

@Dovahkiin  Meditating 2 hours a day at home can not be compared with doing a retreat. At the retreat its silence for 10 days , you can not talk for the 10 days (unless to ask questions regarding the technique).  This is a HUGE part of the retreat and should not be underestimated

I agree. I wasn't trying to compare them. Rather, I was comparing 2 hours per day alongside 1 retreat per quarter to living like a monk (so similar to retreat) constantly.

On 3/27/2018 at 7:35 AM, Leo Gura said:

It's hard to become deeply enlightened as a householder unless you got some special tricks up your sleeve, like powerful yogic techniques or psychedelics or something.

The disadvantage is probably 10:1 to 20:1. If this wasn't the case, there would be no point in becoming a monk.

If you went at enlightenment full-time, hardcore, you could probably do it in 1-2 years. Although who really knows. These are just guestimates and everyone is different.

#1 factor in enlightenment seems to be undivided focus for long periods of time. Which is a rare thing these days. Which is why so few people get enlightened. Unnatural periods of focus are usually required.

It will have effect. But not likely to produce enlightenment.

Thanks Leo. Even a guestimation at quantifying the difference helps me a lot.

22 hours ago, cirkussmile said:

Don't forget strong determination sitting. That's the core of the technique.

1 hour sittings and I highly recommend doing a 10 day retreat to get established in the technique.

I'd definitely second this. I've found sittings of strong determination to be way, way more effective than letting myself fidget, both on retreat and in everyday life.

19 hours ago, Seeker10304 said:

@Leo Gura So 10 days retreat eh? I am not even aware of any retreats in my country and I don't think I am in a point in my life where I can do this. 
And even with 2 hours per day which seems very hardcore to me, its not doable in less than a decade.

Just out of curiosity do you think you will get faster results with self inquiry or its about the same?

Strong determination sitting is the core of Vipassana? I though it was a technique pretty much applicable to any other technique which is basically use it for a long period of time (1hour+) and dont move, at all.

Elrend K I think its "experience" of no self, though from Leo's videos I understand there layers even to that. 

Thanks everyone for replying, including onecloudynight, robdl and Recursoinomina!

 

 

It's worth checking here - https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/locations/directory - as many, many countries have this type of Vipassana center.