Does the universe exist independent of our mind?

[Deep]

Does the universe exist independent of our mind?

Was there ever a time when you didn't exist?

Why does God interact with itself in a rough manner? 

I'll share my opinion on these questions later. I want to read your opinions first. lol 

[Dino D]

yes

no

because he can / no need for a reason / if its infinite it includes also this

 

[Faceless]

God likes to party??‍♂️

[Rilles]

Have you ever realized that the "mind" doesnt even exist, there is only thoughts and body. Look for yourself. 

[BjarkeT]

1 hour ago, Dino D said:

yes

no

because he can / no need for a reason / if its infinite it includes also this

 

what do you mean by infinite? if you mean the universe in terms of size then I don't see how it's related. Acording to science it shouldn't be infinite in terms of size as the universe expands it can't expand if its infinite and if it's in terms of possibilities then it doesn't automatically conclude that our universe is in this way in a way it does but its not enough to back it up as you could use that logic for an infinite amount of things by the same logic that would also include the possibility that the universe does exist without the need for consciousness  

*Was there ever a time when you didn't exist?'

I personally believe this is the first time i ever was alive and will be 

@Rilles sorry if I am rude but if it doesn't exist because you can't see it(in case if thats what you mean) does that mean my legs don't exist too when i can't see it? or everything behind my back I can't have a direct experience of it unless I look at it but then it's no longer behind my back but obviously what I don't see is still there you can still get knocked out by something you didn't see

i personally don't believe that something exists deepened on if you see it or not besides quantum mechanics i haven't seen anything in science that should say that should be true in our *level* of exsistence rather it something that happens on the smallest levels 

how did you came to the conclusion that there is no mind? 

Edited March 20, 2018 by BjarkeT

[Dino D]

@BjarkeT 1. if you say that the legs exist independet if you see it, so does the universe exist independet of your mind, you contradict your self... you die-your mind, i still exist, so simply

2. If I'm body mind so there was time where I didnt exist, of course before i was born... If I'm God, pure infinite or finite awareness, there wast time before I existed... There is no existence without time, so the questions answers his self. Existance is only possible in time, so as time happend, existance started -how did this happend-big bang-there was nothing, no time, and it started, why, how exactly, who knows, its still all nothing, and nothing ever happend

3. Why does he so, its probbably evan a wrong question

4. forget the infinite part, not important and maybe also not true, maybe 100% true

[Rilles]

@BjarkeT Please tell me in your direct experience what the mind is. Im genuinely curious because it might help me on the path, all I find when I self inquire are thoughts in an empty space. 

[BjarkeT]

@Rilles didn't really explain how you came to the conclusion that there is no mind

there is people who have experience the earth is flat through direct experience and people who have experienced the earth is round(astronauts for example) so i don't see how it is a very reliable method for reality. In normal situations in everyday life people can experience the same thing at the same time, however, they can walk away with two different experiences of the same thing

I haven't seen a brain in real life(but some have obviously like the guy who stole einsteins brain) however it seems very convincing through all the research on it and evidence behind it and from personal experience something called attention residue happens in the brain 

its a concept that if you switch your attention quickly between two things it will have a residue and you will concentrate at a lower level that I have experience if its just thoughts I don't see how it explain this its probably something you have experience too

also to concentrate at a higher level you need to be bored so the brain can fire the relevant neurons in isolation and produce something called myelin that's based on brain research you simply can not have the high concentration if you switch your attention quickly due to attention residue so if the research on brain applys through experience too i don't see why it would be false as there is also evidence behind it and true for experience 

the research is from a book called deep work by cal newport and other different sources that he talks about

if you search video of a real brain on youtube you will see one but i would go against it if you don't like to see these sort of things 

Edited March 20, 2018 by BjarkeT

[Rilles]

I dont want to go off topic too much so I wont write more than this post. I had a thought a few years ago "Where is the mind located?" Since we always talk about mind I wanted to find it but then I looked closely trying to locate it but all I found were thoughts and images arising behind the eyes but theres literally only that...

Why I found it interesting is because we always talk about mind but what exactly is it... And I didnt say the brain doesnt exist btw. Hope this clears it up, its hard to explain.

[Deep]

1 hour ago, Rilles said:

Have you ever realized that the "mind" doesnt even exist, there is only thoughts and body. Look for yourself. 

I think the mind is a part of our consciousness which tries to make sense of the world. The mind doesn't exist separate from consciousness; it's just a part of it. 

[BjarkeT]

@Rilles isn't it in the head where its located? i will try to keep it short and few posts as possible so there won't be that many posts off topic x D 

Edited March 20, 2018 by BjarkeT

[Rilles]

@BjarkeT

I suggest we self inquire and then ill start a topic on this tommorrow haha.

[Dino D]

25 minutes ago, BjarkeT said:

 

there is people who have experience the earth is flat through direct experience and people who have experienced the earth is round

No, people have ony experienced perception, vision sound, smell, thoughts, then they created a thought that the earth is flat or round... if you search for any of those particular things (vison sound thoughts) you will se that is made of nothing, that it is located in you, that it is you ... 

What is really real, go touch something and be criticall, how does it feel, what is the feeling, what precisely, whats the ,,substace of it" , WHO IS IT THAT IS AWARE OF IT, what is he? where is he, what are his propertiess, and the inqury starts  

[BjarkeT]

@Dino D

if people have only experience perception then what do people mean with direct experience that most people talk about on the forum? i hear direct experience a lot when people talk about truth in the forum never heard perception 

[Faceless]

26 minutes ago, BjarkeT said:

@Dino D

if people have only experience perception then what do people mean with direct experience that most people talk about on the forum? i hear direct experience a lot when people talk about truth in the forum never heard perception 

Those are good questions. When you go into direct experience very carefully it doesn’t seem so direct. 

Experience is a movement of thought which implies that it cannot be direct at all. In the sense that we see everything the the limited conditioned lense of thought. 

That kind of perception is action according to thought which is limited/incomplete action. 

Question is is there an action that is direct, instant, complete, whole, without the movement of thought. 

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Faceless

[BjarkeT]

@Faceless then why do people say direct experience a lot on this forum? are you saying leo is wrong with direct experience?  

@Deep sorry for going off topic 

[Faceless]

31 minutes ago, BjarkeT said:

then why do people say direct experience a lot on this forum? are you saying leo is wrong with direct experience?  

Idk 

i am just bringing to light the nature of an experience.

Could be that using words to explain something inevitably presents itself as an experience. 

When I hear that one experiences the absolute truth or god I instantly get a red flag alert but I also take into accord the limits of language ‘thought’ when trying to explain that which is beyond those very limits. 

When I hear the statement ‘I have had direct experience of the absolute’ i usually look at other statements in connection with that statement. Example if one tries to create a formula that claims to have come up with some kind of formulation to achieve that direct experience and so on. 

I do personally go through very quiet states of mind/thought. Where I feel as if there is no center in which is perceiving but I wouldn’t call it an experience. Because there seems to be no thing observing. It’s like nobody’s home. 

But this could just be the result of the mind quieting down and seeming like it is gone or not active. But I could be wrong and It could just simply be a thought projected experience. 

Never the less I think it’s good to understand that all experience is never new, and is determined by our memory, knowledge, or the stream of thought. This way we can somewhat navigate through various road blocks like illusion and deception. Because when it comes to relationship with the environment, ourselves, others, it’s important to see that the way we interpret our reality can influence those relationships dramatically in one way or another. Perhaps positively but also even negatively. 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Faceless

[LastThursday]

5 hours ago, Deep said:

Does the universe exist independent of our mind?

Yes and, no. It's one of:

1. They are both parts of the same thing (you, non-duality, AI, god, yadda yadda), and so cannot be separated. So no.
2. The universe is just a construct of our collective minds. You believe in a universe because you've been told a story, which you believe. So no.
3. The mind is a construct of our minds. You believe in a mind because you've been indoctrinated into believing you have one. So dunno.
4. Your mind is real and exists inside a real universe. So yes.

5 hours ago, Deep said:

Was there ever a time when you didn't exist?

Again, being a devil's advocate:

1. You cannot be aware of not being aware. Anything to the contrary is hearsay and stories told to you by others and which you believe. So no.
2. 'You' as body/mind don't actually exist - again more stories - you are actually non-dual, AI, god, yadda yadda. So meaningless question.
3. You were actually born into the world as a human being along with 7 billion others and your conciousness developed from nothing as you got older and there's nothing at all weird going on. So yes.
4. You, your memories and the whole of existence came into being just now. So dunno.
5. There is no time, it's a construct of your mind - more stories. So meaningless question.

And my point? Be flexible in what you believe, don't cling too tightly to your beliefs, otherwise it's just blind faith.

[dorg]

Extract from "Living Deliberately" by Harry Palmer

PDF here: https://theavatarcourse.com/eliving-deliberately.html

 

Quote

 

Chapter Thirteen

The Great Divide

In an effort to categorize reality, some viewpoint

constructs the idea of an inside reality and an out-

side reality and creates a mind to decide what

belongs where. Thereafter, what is perceived as out-

side the mind is objective reality, and what is per-

ceived inside the mind (apperceived) is subjective

reality.

This separation of reality into the objective (physi-

cal) and the subjective (mental) leads to the mistak-

en assumption (belief) that what is in the mind is

consciousness and what is outside the mind is some-

thing other than consciousness—a mystery ensues.

This permits the construction of a reality that

appears to be independent of the perceiver.

The next step in the grand illusion is to conclude

that consciousness is the result of your interaction

with this independent physical reality. What an

effective trap this makes! A mystery is created, and

then the mystery becomes the source of conscious-

ness. Thus, illusion and deception appear as subjec-

tive and objective reality.

The trap tells us that we determine what we believe

from our experience of previously defined realities.

Thus we continuously shrink and solidify the cre-

ation in which we operate. The result is a being in a

very defined, solid sphere of reality (e.g., the phys-

ical universe).

 

 

[Dino D]

2 hours ago, BjarkeT said:

@Dino D

if people have only experience perception then what do people mean with direct experience that most people talk about on the forum? i hear direct experience a lot when people talk about truth in the forum never heard perception 

forget non duality, biology= you only percive or experience the filtered version of reality witch we can call perception... when you see a stool, light comes trought you eyes, it gots proccesed in your brain and reproducet to your counciousness as a vision/photo of a stool, who know how a stool really looks, or how it looks trought eyes of other beings, what vaves of light exist that you dont see/percive and so on... so you never ever experience anything other then your perception...

now lets include non duality- In fact when i said perception i ment direct experience, words and terminology are here to show the way, on their own in the relative linguistic meaning, they can mean different things, what i wanted to say is that you only experience direct experience (your own perception), direct experience is a better therm because is a step closer to truth, perception is colored, its subjective its like that like this, you can atribute many properties to what you percive-big smal, red blue, intense weak, loud, and so on... when you inqury hard in whatever youre perciving, when you trully look what it is, what your direct experinece is and what is it made from, who is experiencing and so on... you get from direct perception, to direct experience of what really is-the truth... 

also because my english isnt good, its double hard for me to express myself clearly...