An argument AGAINST the inifnity of awareness

[UDT]

"Awareness cannot exist in isolation, awareness is always awareness of something. That is not to say that the awareness and the "something" are separate. Have you ever experienced awareness with no object? "Are you aware right now?" Of course we answer, "Yes", because when we examine our own experience in this moment we find that we are aware of our thoughts, sensations and perceptions.
It is impossible to totally exclude awareness of these things unless we are in deep sleep (or unconsciousness) in which case we literally cease to be Ask a person (or yourself) in deep sleep if they are aware and you will get no reply. So from our personal experience we cannot say, "I am awareness.", as Enlightenment Theory does. All we can say is that awareness (which necessarily includes, and is not separate from, what one is aware of) is arising.
The correct conclusion from the experience of awareness (enlightenment) is not that, "I am awareness" it is that awareness is arising here. There is no "I", no person who is aware. However, the awareness that arises is finite and localised. Again our experience tells us this, when I stub my toe, you do not cry out in pain because you are obviously not aware of my thoughts, sensations and perceptions. What then is the locus of our awareness, around what does it cluster? We know that the body changes as time passes, it regenerates, so we literally do not have the same body now that we did as a child, so we cannot claim that the locus of awareness is the body, nor can we claim that it is the even more transient thoughts, sensations and perceptions, which constitute experience. The locus of awareness is in fact a biological organism, this is what you are, a human biological organism and you are the same organism throughout your life. Your awareness is contingent upon the existence of this particular biological organism. The awareness of what you habitually refer to as your experience depends upon the existence of that particular specific biological entity. Without a living conscious being there can be no awareness and living conscious beings are finite, they are born and they die and the unique and specific awareness that originates with them is born and dies too."  - from under https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9AKvZgKfv8

Edited March 19, 2018 by UDT

[Telepresent]

Ok I haven't watched that video, so my response is incomplete. 

9 minutes ago, UDT said:

The correct conclusion from the experience of awareness (enlightenment) is not that, "I am awareness" it is that awareness is arising here

I have argued many times that people (& most importantly from my pov, I) confuse the mind-based I, and the experiential I.  Perhaps awareness can't exist without isolation. That doesn't mean that anything else must exist. Dig

[UDT]

@Telepresent I agree. Taking it futher, if awareness can´t exist without isolation, its not infinite.

[robdl]

For the sake of argument -- if the awareness that arises is "finite and localised," wouldn't that suggest a very subtle level of mind-body identification taking place? Who/what is noticing these limiting conditions on awareness?  Is awareness being finite and localised a fact deduced by mind, or is it directly experienced as such?

Edited March 19, 2018 by robdl

[abrakamowse]

In deep sleep awareness is aware of nothing... not-a-thing. 

 

Awareness is there without any object, just aware of itself. IMO.

Edited March 19, 2018 by abrakamowse

[Dino D]

I dont belive you will get a valid answer here. Thats you being sceptic and critic, and enlightenment theory and ,,enlightenment people" cant give you an answer. you will only get: you need to let go of that question, who is asking that question? who is noticing that what youre saying?

[Dino D]

58 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

In deep sleep awareness is aware of nothing... not-a-thing. 

 

Awareness is there without any object, just aware of itself. IMO.

NO, when awareness is aware of itself thats the experience of enlightement (no self state, absolut infinity state, being all one, being pure knowing-name it whatever you want), you do experience it in a way, its a nonexperience, hard to say but youre councious of it. In deep sleep there is nothing, and no enlightement experience, no observer...

[abrakamowse]

8 minutes ago, Dino D said:

NO, when awareness is aware of itself thats the experience of enlightement (no self state, absolut infinity state, being all one, being pure knowing-name it whatever you want), you do experience it in a way, its a nonexperience, hard to say but youre councious of it. In deep sleep there is nothing, and no enlightement experience, no observer...

Ok, that was a discussion I had with some people who is from vedanta. They say that you are aware of nothing. Because there's nothing that's what you "remember" when you wake up... no thing.

But... I don't still have a position on that and I don't know how to know it, because I think I am a person.

[Dino D]

2 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

Ok, that was a discussion I had with some people who is from vedanta. They say that you are aware of nothing. Because there's nothing that's what you "remember" when you wake up... no thing.

But... I don't still have a position on that and I don't know how to know it, because I think I am a person.

Maybe awareness is just a property of the body/mind and we delude our selfs that we are it, and we perscribe all the abilities of awareness to the whole world (and it has no abillities/properties) as the whole world is awareness. We just assume so... we have to train 10-20 years to delude our selfs hard enought, or to train our brain to be in that standby perciving mode... 

however, no one can give you logic on this, give up, let go, who percieves this questioning, how do you know that logic, what is logic, are you beliving in it or being it, what do you actually experience, and so on bla bla bla... They give us the easy answers that we can understand anyways, but when we ask tricky questions and give arguments, than you get the answer, let go, who is asking this, youre nothing, infinite, bla bla  I hope they are right but just dont have the knowladge to explain  but i really get the notion that people just cant explain the ,,hard questins" , then it gets non dual dogma(or pure theory) or pointing to inquiry excersizes or inquiry steps...

[UDT]

1 hour ago, Dino D said:

Maybe awareness is just a property of the body/mind and we delude our selfs that we are it, and we perscribe all the abilities of awareness to the whole world (and it has no abillities/properties) as the whole world is awareness. We just assume so... we have to train 10-20 years to delude our selfs hard enought, or to train our brain to be in that standby perciving mode... 

however, no one can give you logic on this, give up, let go, who percieves this questioning, how do you know that logic, what is logic, are you beliving in it or being it, what do you actually experience..

Yes indeed. The problem is that Leo and non duality teachers like Rupert Spira claim to know the infinity of their awareness. I can realize awareness being aware of itself but couldnt see a way to say if the present is only what is and it will be there infinitely or if Im a finite awareness localized within my organism somehow which believes being infinite awareness. When sleeping, there cant be an enlightenment experience to what I know. Thus, this awareness is not constant. Awareness beiing aware of nothing is nothing. but how can nothingness be me then?

[abrakamowse]

Maybe that's the answer?

From wikipedia Sunyata

Quote

"In Mahayana, Sunyata refers to the tenet that "all things are empty of intrinsic existence and nature," but may also refer to the Buddha-nature teachings and primordial or empty awareness, as in Dzogchen and Shentong."

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by abrakamowse

[Spiral]

You're are aware even if you are asleep, that why it's possible to talk to sleeping people. People sometimes talk to me while im asleep because I talk in my sleep. From what i've heard it's rather pointless, and mostly for fun. But you don't remember because the brain is in recovery mode so to speak. 

[abrakamowse]

My two cents. 

I agree with @Spiral  

I think that the one who can't experience nothingness as in deep sleep is the ego. Awareness is always there. Because there's nothing to experience it seems like a gap in consciousness. But, consciousness also appears in awareness. They are not the same, at least in vedanta teachings.

The ego can't experience nothingness, we believe we are the ego that's why we think in deep sleep we lose consciousness, and we think awareness is not constant. But we don't experience awareness, awareness is experiencing "us".

 

 

[Dino D]

18 minutes ago, UDT said:

Yes indeed. The problem is that Leo and non duality teachers like Rupert Spira claim to know the infinity of their awareness. I can realize awareness being aware of itself but couldnt see a way to say if the present is only what is and it will be there infinitely or if Im a finite awareness localized within my organism somehow which believes being infinite awareness. When sleeping, there cant be an enlightenment experience to what I know. Thus, this awareness is not constant. Awareness beiing aware of nothing is nothing. but how can nothingness be me then?

btw. there are yogis that claim beinf aware when they sleep, but befor being born, or dead, or on things on other planets they are still not aware...

Awareness beiing aware of nothing is nothing. but how can nothingness be me then?- hmm what would a smart non dualist say, who is asking that? haha, Ok, lets be serious: Awareness being aware of the hand as example when looking sharp lets you see that there is really no hand, and no senzations, evan go to the bottom of the hand and you will see that this nothing, it is made of pure awareness, and awareness is made of nothing, youre not the hand (because the hand does not exist or it acutally exist us nothing or as awarness). Everything is made of nothing, awareness is made of nothing, so awareness by being aware is only aware of nothing or of it self, so everything is pure awareness, nothing or the one and the same self... How can you know, just by experience, you can littelary experience all of this, realize it as clear as it gets, fuck the talk, it looks like the bigest strongest and most obvious truth...

now turn on your brain, think, and be open that this also can be just a state of the brain that feels so, and then you delude yourself and give it UNIVERSAL SPIRITUAL MEANIG and properties... what happends in deep sleep, what  happend before you were born, why do you dont see my toughts, why when we damage the brain awarenes changes and those hard questions point to such stuff, non dualist have no clear answers

again be open minded, if they cant expailn it does not mean it not possible that they are still right, but its not likely and we should not take it for granted...

[robdl]

waking reality, dreaming in sleep, and deep dreamless sleep all occur within awareness. 

deep sleep isn't an absence of awareness, it's the awareness of total absence.

[Dino D]

1 minute ago, robdl said:

 

deep sleep isn't an absence of awareness, it's the awareness of total absence.

there is no such stuff or state, presence or absence, all is now, we are all one, absolute infinity, who is present?, who is abscent?, so there is something to be present and absent... Ok awareness is always there, but then something comes and goes, and it happends in time, so there is awareness and there is something=dulity... The whole theory does not fit together... and it does not withstand the ,,proces of prove" or logic

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, UDT said:

Awareness cannot exist in isolation, awareness is always awareness of something. That is not to say that the awareness and the "something" are separate. Have you ever experienced awareness with no object? "

This is false.

Awareness can and does exist in isolation.

Awareness is precisely NOT the thing being awared.

You can experience awareness with no object.

The reason you say all of these falsehoods is because you're not very conscious, and haven't actually done any hardcore awareness practices.

Spend 5 years meditating, then let's talk. You are not going to understand awareness/consciousness from within your materialist paradigm and without doing serious awareness practices.

You don't realize yet how deep of a rabbit hole this awareness business is. It doesn't work like anything your culture taught you.

[robdl]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is false.

Awareness can and does exist in isolation.

Awareness is precisely NOT the thing being awared.

You can experience awareness with no object.

The reason you say all of these falsehoods is because you're not very conscious, and haven't actually done any hardcore awareness practices.

Spend 5 years meditating, then let's talk. Until then, you're talking nonsense based on a materialist set of dogmas.

ego mind posing conceptual spiritual questions, to receive answers to only perpetuate ego mind, to distract from/postpone the dissolution of ego mind.   95% of all spiritual questions in a nutshell.  Questions sustaining and reinforcing the assumed existence of the "questioner."

Edited March 19, 2018 by robdl

[robdl]

The intellect/ego mind will happily spend the entirety of a human life mentally masturbating over nondual philosophy --- meanwhile, the "questioner" is taken for granted as continuous and real, and never investigated.

[Dino D]

@UDT do you see what kind of explonation Leo gave, he didnt, he said you didnt understand it and you need to meditate more. That is not really an answer.

And thats much more lickly to be the truth, Leo is probbaby right, but he didnt answer or explained your (and mine) critic and questions...

Thats how all of mine hard questions get ,,answered" i wrote about this in other topics also, and i will prapare a post on this, with those questions.

I will also increase the work (meditation and other) and I hope i will ,,get there."

All this non duality questions can only be answered trought experience, not with words, so we cant talk about it, we have to meditate, and experience it deeply  peace