Two Different Nirvikalpa Samadhis

[abrakamowse]

Awesome @Shanmugam  Thanks for sharing this!

 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by abrakamowse

[Shanmugam]

40 minutes ago, brovakhiin said:

What a load of blabla. I don't think it goes on forever. I just said I think there's multiple things to become conscious of. For example, you might become conscious of the self being a bundle of different thoughts and patterns etc at one point, later on how nothing exists, at another point the truth of non-doership and so on. Each of these is an enlightenment=becoming conscious of the true nature of something. My "main teachers"  so to speak have been Adyashanti and Peter Ralston, but my own experience ended up being completely different than expected anyway. Fyi I reached the end of seeking, but since there's no escaping maya, I find myself going on anyway. What's the big deal?

Member of the leo cult..that really stings  let's keep it kid's friendly, cowboy

My response was mainly related to what exactly we are discussing on this thread... If you have really reached the end of seeking, then the following statement will certainly not make sense to you :

'After you have reached the end of seeking, there is much to seek'

Does it make sense at all?

And Leo and many others, while still seeking, insist that the seeking is really going to be forever. This is exactly what he is saying even though he is using different words... And with this understanding, he is attempting to guide hundreds of people in this forum. Even though he himself says that 'I can be wrong, I am not promoting any cult', the human nature is always to follow the herd and follow the person that they think as some authority. Only after having witnessed this enough in this forum, I am saying that this forum is slowly turning into a cult. 

I am still not sure if you have actually gone through the whole discussion in this thread. Because, my reply was written in the context of the whole discussion. 

You said you have been listening to Adyashanthi. Adyashanthi once said 'I have been fortunate enough to not to have any psychic powers'... He said something very significant. Because, the real teachers know that psychic powers are just distraction. But in this same thread, there is a post which insists the 'greatness' of psychic powers, paranormal, talking to aliens etc. And the reply was given to mean 'even though seeking has ended, there is still a lot to seek, like psychic powers, paranormal etc'.... This is a sign of delusion, because he thinks that he is enlightened... 

[Shanmugam]

1 hour ago, brovakhiin said:

 For example, you might become conscious of the self being a bundle of different thoughts and patterns etc at one point, later on how nothing exists, at another point the truth of non-doership and so on. Each of these is an enlightenment=becoming conscious of the true nature of something.

"Each of these is an enlightenment=becoming conscious of the true nature of something."

I missed that 

Yeah...You can even choose to call 'taking a shit' as enlightenment. But when we use the word 'enlightenment' we are talking about something that is  agreed upon among enlightened people.. It is about something that everyone is actually longing for knowingly or unknowingly..

And you call what I wrote as 'blah, blah'.. ? Good....  

[Deep]

@Shanmugam It's okay, let them think whatever they want. It doesn't make any difference to us. 

This is what I think about enlightenment: I think a person can take up spiritual practice such as Bhakti yoga, Gyana yoga, Raj yoga or anything else. Then they can experience kundalini because their mind is being harnessed. Enlightenment can happen even before kundalini reaches Sahasrara. While the Kundalini is buzzing at the base of the spine, it still changes awareness. As it rises higher awareness starts to increase exponentially. While the awareness increases a person can have lots of realizations along the way, BUT it doesn't have to rise all the way up for enlightenment. 

That's my experience with it. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Deep

[Shanmugam]

6 minutes ago, Deep said:

@Shanmugam It's okay, let them think whatever they want. It doesn't make any difference to us. 

This is what I think about enlightenment: I think a person can take up spiritual practice such as Bhakti yoga, Gyana yoga, Raj yoga or anything else. Then they can experience kundalini because their mind is being harnessed. Enlightenment can happen even before kundalini reaches Sahasrara. While the Kundalini is buzzing at the base of the spine, it still changes awareness. As it rises higher awareness starts to increase exponentially. While the awareness increases a person can have lots of realizations along the way, BUT it doesn't have to rise all the way up for enlightenment. 

That's my experience with it. 

Your experience with it?

Let me tell you something.. Your understanding of enlightenment is still bookish. As per what I understood from one of your previous posts, you have read Ramakrishna and Vivekananda and you are not seriously in the spiritual path. There is really a very long way to go. In fact, you haven't really started to walk in the real spiritual path yet.

I got introduced into spiritual path after reading Ramakrishna and Vivekananda when I was 9 years old. I had given public speeches about both of them in my school but  that was all just an intellectual understanding.. I had to go through a lot after this.

In fact, whether you like to hear this or not, let me say something:  Don't think you are superior to all these people who are in this forum (in case you do). In fact, many of them have actually got various glimpses.. The confusions that they are going through come from improper guidance. But based on what you are saying, you are just starting out by reading some books about enlightenment.

I am not sure if you remember what I told you in one of my previous posts to you: Don't conclude anything yet.. You have to approach the whole path with an attitude 'I don't know yet'.. What you read from a book is just a verbal testimony; and verbal testimony is not the true knowledge..

 

[Socrates]

On 21/3/2018 at 5:16 AM, Leo Gura said:

Consciousness also breeds arrogance.

This is alarming, shouldn't it be the other way around?

[Faceless]

43 minutes ago, Socrates said:

This is alarming, shouldn't it be the other way around?

Yeah lol 

But that’s just an indication that one is not conscious actually. Which has relevance to what @shanmugan is suggesting about ‘higher levels’ and thinking one has arrived but is still seeking. 

The ‘arival’ becomes a projection of thought. Thought doesn't see its own movement in action so it then becomes this self righteous behavior. An indication that measure still determines ones outlook. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Faceless

[Saumaya]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There are many degrees of enlightenment, despite the fact that it is all one thing. If you refuse to accept that, then you will become stuck at whichever level you're at, justifying it to yourself as "there are no levels."

Yes, of course there are no levels. But there are also levels.

Doublethink

[abrakamowse]

Ramana: "Keep your mind still. That is enough. You will get spiritual help sitting in this hall if you keep yourself still. The aim of all practices is to give up all practices. When the mind becomes still, the power of the Self will be experienced. The waves of the Self are pervading everywhere. If the mind is in peace, one begins to experience them."

[Deep]

@Shanmugam I regret coming on this forum now. Goodbye and good luck on your spiritual journey. Peace and love to all! 

[Faceless]

Just remember, explore yourself. Not according to another. Don’t get caught in books with there ideas, philosophys, concepts, and theory’s. 

Learning about yourself is where wisdom comes from. That’s where embodiment is actualized. 

You need nothing other than the energy to freely investigate yourself. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Faceless

[Shanmugam]

58 minutes ago, Deep said:

@Shanmugam I regret coming on this forum now. Goodbye and good luck on your spiritual journey. Peace and love to all! 

Why? Do you feel offended after reading what I said?

[Hsinav]

@Leo Gura

What is your word for "end of seeking"?

I'm sure it's not the word "Enlightenment".

[Deep]

1 hour ago, Shanmugam said:

Why? Do you feel offended after reading what I said?

No, I'm not offended. I don't want to mentally masturbate over something that can't be described in words. I know how to attain enlightenment and I have spiritual practice. How does coming to this forum benefit me? 

 

4 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

Your experience with it?

Let me tell you something.. Your understanding of enlightenment is still bookish. As per what I understood from one of your previous posts, you have read Ramakrishna and Vivekananda and you are not seriously on the spiritual path. 

No my understanding about enlightenment comes from experience, not just books. I am reading books to compare my experience with masters to see if I'm on the right track. 

4 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

In fact, whether you like to hear this or not, let me say something:  Don't think you are superior to all these people who are in this forum (in case you do). In fact, many of them have actually got various glimpses.. The confusions that they are going through come from improper guidance. But based on what you are saying, you are just starti ng out by reading some books about enlightenment.

Yes, I think of myself as superior to other people.  I never denied that they had glimpses. I don't have any reason to believe or disbelieve them. I don't know them personally. If they had glimpses, great, I'm happy for them. If they haven't had glimpses, great, I'm still happy for them. If I thought I was superior to others on this forum, I wouldn't have posted videos of common people sharing their kundalini awakening. It was to show that everyone is capable of attaining enlightenment. 

 

4 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

I am not sure if you remember what I told you in one of my previous posts to you: Don't conclude anything yet.. You have to approach the whole path with an attitude 'I don't know yet'.. What you read from a book is just a verbal testimony; and verbal testimony is not the true knowledge..

If you're enlightened why do you have a strong desire to be right? Why should I believe you are enlightened? 

[Nahm]

@Deep @Shanmugam Yeah. Osho is God, Sadhguru is a fake, Leo is wrong, you’re enlightened, no one else is. We got it. Would it be “seeking” to simply move on, a little, something new maybe? 

[Nahm]

@brovakhiin nailed it. 

[Shanmugam]

@Deep

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No, I'm not offended. I don't want to mentally masturbate over something that can't be described in words.

Very good.. .. thats actually a pretty good decision

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 I know how to attain enlightenment and I have spiritual practice.

That is a bold claim.. Good luck with that!

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How does coming to this forum benefit me? 

Actually, it is better if you stay away from this forum. Because, you are right, you will end up in more confusion and more mental masturbation, based on how this forum is trending. So, your decision is right here.

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No my understanding about enlightenment comes from experience, not just books. I am reading books to compare my experience with masters to see if I'm on the right track. 

Not really sure what kind of experience you are talking about. If you explain a little bit about your experience, I can say something..But I still remember what you said in one of your posts here:

And this is what you said in one of the posts:  'I'm not really seeking enlightenment. I'm just messing around because I have a lot of free time'...If someone says he is not seeking enlightenment, it only means two things:

1)His seeking has ended (he is enlightened)

2) He still has no concrete idea or even interest to pursue a spiritual path.

So which one of the above is your case?

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Yes, I think of myself as superior to other people.  I never denied that they had glimpses. I don't have any reason to believe or disbelieve them. I don't know them personally. If they had glimpses, great, I'm happy for them. If they haven't had glimpses, great, I'm still happy for them. If I thought I was superior to others on this forum, I wouldn't have posted videos of common people sharing their kundalini awakening. It was to show that everyone is capable of attaining enlightenment. 

Not everything in your mind happens with your conscious awareness. If that was the case, then everyone can be enlightened so easily. The reason why I even brought it up is because, it is very important to pay attention to your thought process objectively, when it comes to walking on the spiritual path. 

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If you're enlightened why do you have a strong desire to be right?

Do you think you can really read my intentions by just reading my words? Do you think that the words I have typed here somehow conveys the way I experience the reality? If you yourself are not enlightened, do you really think that you have the measuring scale to determine if someone is enlightened? 

My posts are not coming from the desire to be right. It is very easy to interpret it that way. I was just having an email conversation with a seeker today. And he asked me a question regarding the purpose behind my critical posts about some gurus. I will just paste my reply here;  It answers the question you have asked:

this question has a wrong assumption that my life is still driven by a personal purpose or a self-agenda. But all I know is, I do whatever that is required this moment. So, when I look at what happened in the past 3 years, one thing led to another and I finally ended up criticizing him, writing a book and maintaining a blog. I never thought that all this would happen and I couldn't have done all this before the transformation. 

Just think about a simple human nature. You see a person in the street who seems to have lost his way. He wants to go to 5th street in your neighborhood but he seems to be having trouble. A natural response of any human being here (who knows that neighborhood very well) is to ask him where he wants to go and guide him. Let us say you tell him "you are in the wrong place, 5th street is not here, you have to walk in the opposite direction and cross two more streets'; And the person replies, 'I think you must be wrong then. Because a person who knows this neighborhood in and out told me that 5th street is somewhere here'... What will you do here? You seem to be the only person who can help him. And you can't just walk away without telling him that the other person was wrong.

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Why should I believe you are enlightened? 

You don't have to.  I never asked anyone to believe in what I say. I only suggest two things: 1)open-mindedness 2)Skepticism

My suggestion was only this, and I am stating this for the third time: Don't come to any conclusions yet. Because the nature of a human life itself is such that his conclusions get proved to be wrong again and again; and this happens a million times in the spiritual path. So, I am just telling you to proceed with an attitude of 'I don't know'... 

I usually remember the posts of a few members in this forum. And I can pretty much see how their thought process towards the whole thing is going. I still suspect that whatever you are saying is just 'bookish'...

But let me tell you one thing if you are not aware:

Enlightenment is pretty much a death. It is a psychological death that you have to go through... The words like kundalini, Brahman, Atman, God etc can be deceiving to the human mind and give hopes to the ego as if there is going to be some kind of achievement. But enlightenment is really not an achievement. Spiritual path  is a game of losing. It is actually the most ordinary thing in the world. 

Just as a reminder, let me also quote what I told you in the other thread you created long back:

"Don't come to conclusions yet... There is a long way to go.. The only sin that you can commit on the spiritual path is to coming to conclusions.. I am using the word 'sin' just to make a point, by the way. Don't conclude anything.. This is a rule of thumb you need to remember when it comes to spiritual path. You will come across many contradictions and confusions as you proceed further. There will be hundreds of moments when you will be tempted to conclude you are enlightened; and there will be hundreds of moments when you will be tempted to conclude that enlightenment is bullshit... You need to keep going non-stop, with no conclusions at all!

Truth, God, Brahman, Atman, Self, Absolute, Tao etc are just different words that mean the same... It is just your true nature hidden behind the veil of ignorance."

Finally, let me give you my comments on what you said in that same thread.. First, let me quote what you said:

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Some people's idea of enlightenment is detaching from all concepts and just living life (partially true imo). Some people's idea of enlightenment is being at peace with everything (partially true). Some people's idea is realizing you're not the ego (partially true). People have many ideas about what enlightenment is and it makes enlightenment complicated. My previous understanding of enlightenment was also like that. Now I think enlightenment is simply about controlling the mind. That's it! It's not even about finding God. 

First of all, ideas about enlightenment are just ideas. The real question to ask here is 'Why do you want enlightenment? What are you actually seeking?'

Seeking is actually venturing into the unknown. You are not sure what the end goal is, but all you know is that you are still seeking. That is all a seeker can really say until he is enlightened. Everything else you say are just 'ideas' that you pick up from books and other people.

Enlightenment is not about just controlling the mind... Enlightenment is in one way like a peak where everything converges. You can't just define it in a paragraph... But the monkey mind indeed gets dissolved; it doesn't mean that there is a 'you' who has controlled it.. In fact, everything that you said in your message is actually true about enlightenment in some sense...

But the first step in the spiritual path is, realizing that you don't know...

[Shanmugam]

27 minutes ago, brovakhiin said:

@Shanmugam I saw us running into semantics from a mile away, but you went off throwing around patronizing assumptions anyway. Whatever. The colloquial usage of the word enlightenment tends to be abstract and untangible. Just look at this forum and how much people overthink it to no end, left and right. You would be surprised to find me actually agreeing with you on a lot of points, and being anything but your average cult member. I go on here to entertain myself, just like you do, and mostly spend my time talking shit.

Yeah, I made a quick assumption about you as a 'cult member'... Probably you are not.   But I still see this forum as something that is going to become a cult sooner or later. That is what I meant when I said that it is moving towards becoming a cult. 

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So, I'm wondering, do or do you not agree that there are multiple facets of truth to become conscious of?

Not really sure what you mean by multiple facets of truth.. There are multiple expressions of truth which is illustrated in the story of blindmen  and the elephant. In my spiritual path, I have just realized illusions as illusions. Once the illusion is gone, whatever that is left shines as truth. 

But what I am objecting to is really different. There is an implication by many members in this forum; they seem to say that you have to be seeking for 'higher' and 'deeper' states of consciousness throughout your life.. In other words, it can be only understood as 'there is no such thing as enlightenment'... So, at least for me, I am pretty sure that forum members are suffering from wrong guidance.

In fact, the purpose of my posts are not properly understood here... I am not posting things to prove something or to argue... I am just trying to help. When people are totally misguided, I don't think I can stop posting... 

[Shanmugam]

11 minutes ago, brovakhiin said:

@Shanmugam Oi. You skipped my response. (but please, no more essays)

No .. I was typing a reply to @Deep . I read your post only after posting my reply but I did notice the notifications..

[Shanmugam]

40 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Deep @Shanmugam Yeah. Osho is God, Sadhguru is a fake, Leo is wrong, you’re enlightened, no one else is. We got it. Would it be “seeking” to simply move on, a little, something new maybe? 

Nope... As long as you are thinking that 'paranormal' and 'aliens probing you' has got something to do with spiritual enlightenment, I will be reminding you again and again that it is not true... Either ignore me or ban me.. 

Anyway, you are interpreting whatever I said with your own ideas about me... Your inclusion of that statement 'you’re enlightened, no one else is.' indicates that very well .. 

 I would suggest reading Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and J.Krishnamurti. But if you want to fool yourself by doing mental masturbation and playing with words with non-dual statements, then go ahead...