Two Different Nirvikalpa Samadhis

[Faceless]

@abrakamowse

You were already aware of this my friend. 

Sign of intelligence??

[Faceless]

@abrakamowse

Intelligence is abundant and inherent in the organism/environment. We ‘thought’ has just got to get out of its way??‍♂️

[abrakamowse]

3 minutes ago, Faceless said:

@abrakamowse

Intelligence is abundant and inherent in the organism/environment. We ‘thought’ has just got to get out of its way??‍♂️

There's things deep down me (or the mind, I don't know) that I feel like they are true. But, thoughts always appears and makes me doubt. That's why we need others who traveled that path before us to know what to "do"... (I put it btw quotes because there's really nothing to do.)

[robdl]

So, there are different levels of mystical experience from the perspective of ego, but there aren't levels to nondual enlightenment from the place of nonduality.  Is that what is being argued, essentially?

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

In another thread, you were talking about how when you look at Osho, Sadhguru or Echkart Tolle you realize that they are not fooling around.  And in this post, you are actually saying that all these people are wrong! Because, not only these three,  people like Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Shankara and every else also say the same thing.. There are no levels in enlightenment..

Logically what you are saying may seem to be true to you. But the problem is, in enlightenment, one variable is completely out of the equation. And your way of thinking assumes that that variable is still going to be there after enlightenment.

It is not really about how deeply you felt in a certain experience or what kind of altered state of consciousness that you experienced. When we talk about enlightenment, we are talking about a totally unaltered state of consciousness! Any kind of higher or lower state is nothing but an alteration  in consciousness. 

Yes.. If someone 'thinks' they are in the highest, they are wrong... But there is no need to think you are in the highest... Non-duality is not about reaching a 'highest' state; reaching a 'highest state' is a part of the regular rat race. So when someone thinks he has reached the highest state, he is definitely wrong. A highest state implies a journey between A and B... But sahaja or enlightenment is when you realize that A and B are the same, that there is no journey at all!

This will actually happen probably a thousand times or more... But you are making a conclusion about the whole thing at this stage. At enlightenment, you don't even have to say or conclude 'this is it'! You know that this is it. And you will understand 'why' only after enlightenment. Because, no matter how intelligent you are, no matter what 'level' of consciousness that you reach, until you are really enlightened your thinking will assume that the variable (which will be out of the equation after enlightenment) is still going to exist in sahaja..

So, even the question 'is there a higher level of awakening or consciousness' will not make sense to you when you are in sahaja. And this is true!  Here, you need to also realize that you are going completely against all these people who taught about enlightenment to you in the first place! 

I know you guys love to split hairs about this stuff.

Like I said, the things which I said are so extremely subtle that no conversation about them is possible. What I am pointing to is beyond the understanding of most human beings, including so called enlightened ones.

Tread carefully. No appeals to authority will work at this level. Only direct experience.

There are many degrees of enlightenment, despite the fact that it is all one thing. If you refuse to accept that, then you will become stuck at whichever level you're at, justifying it to yourself as "there are no levels."

Yes, of course there are no levels. But there are also levels.

[Shanmugam]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I know you guys love to split hairs about this stuff.

Like I said, the things which I said are so extremely subtle that no conversation about them is possible. What I am pointing to is beyond the understanding of most human beings, including so called enlightened ones.

Tread carefully. No appeals to authority will work at this level. Only direct experience.

So to be clear, you are essentially saying that Osho, Ramana Maharshi and Eckhart Tolle doesn't understand it but you understand it.. Is that correct?

(By the way, whatever I said is not based on just authority; but also based on my experience.)

[abrakamowse]

2 hours ago, robdl said:

So, there are different levels of mystical experience from the perspective of ego, but there aren't levels to nondual enlightenment from the place of nonduality.  Is that what is being argued, essentially?

Yes... there's always those two perspectives. Teachers sometimes talk from one perspective and change to the other and that confuses sometimes beginners. It happened to me until I understood that.

 

https://emptinessteachings.com/2014/09/11/the-two-truths-of-buddhism-and-the-emptiness-of-emptiness/

[Deep]

4 hours ago, robdl said:

So, there are different levels of mystical experience from the perspective of ego, but there aren't levels to nondual enlightenment from the place of nonduality.  Is that what is being argued, essentially?

Some experiences help to turn on the light bulb of enlightenment. They help us realize we aren't the body and mind. 

 

 

[Nahm]

@Deep well said man. 

[Nahm]

If there are not deeper consciousness states, then why do some enlightened people refer to / post the words of teachers, and ancient masters in their responses?  I mean, why wouldn’t they just say what comes to mind, since they are equally enlightened? They could simply reference their own previous experiences. 

[Shanmugam]

16 minutes ago, Nahm said:

If there are not deeper consciousness states, then why do some enlightened people refer to / post the words of teachers, and ancient masters in their responses?  I mean, why wouldn’t they just say what comes to mind, since they are equally enlightened? They could simply reference their own previous experiences. 

It is just to back up what they say; Because, they understand how people think. Quoting other enlightened people is required to make people open up...

And still now, a question remains unanswered here. Osho, Sadhguru, Eckhart Tolle, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj etc say that enlightenment is binary. So, to whoever that says that an enlightened person has to work on reaching another deeper level of consciousness, here is the question: Are you guys saying that Osho, Sadhguru, Eckhart Tolle, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj etc are wrong?

(of course, there is a life long deepening after enlightenment, but it isn't about reaching a different or higher level! Whatever deepening that happens, occurs without having to do anything. It simply goes on deepening. But that is something inconceivable for someone who is not enlightened yet)

[Shanmugam]

If the psychological time becomes absent and if a person simply snaps out of time-bound existence, where is the question of craving any 'state' of consciousness? This is what not understood by many people here.

[Nahm]

@Shanmugam More discriminate than seeing authorities as right or wrong. This is the duality game...there are 6 more who say the opposite!  More fundamental than assumptions one knows how ‘others’ think, more deep-seated than a feeling of need to quote ‘others’, more intrinsic of direct experience than what teachers can say with words. More perceptive than  ‘has to work on reaching’ - as a reactive dualistic perspective on what is a a completely open ended expansion of consciousness. More all encompassing than being outside of psychological time in the awareness, actualized being outside of physical time; times to go to work, times to eat lunch, times to leave work, etc. Deeper than the duality of these things implying any ‘craving’ - more clarity on projections in interpretation & perspective. Without freed consciousness, ‘another’ ‘must’ have cravings, ‘another’ ‘must’ have seeking, no. Expansion does not need duality, it only holds it back, keeps status quo. And then there is access through consciousness such as out of body, paranormal, inconsistent ‘reality’, premonition, interaction with Aliens, etc, etc. There is nothing “done” about infinity. You are all that is, the bar is were you place it, if you place it. Or not of course. 

[Shanmugam]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

@Shanmugam More discriminate than seeing authorities as right or wrong. This is the duality game...there are 6 more who say the opposite!  More fundamental than assumptions one knows how ‘others’ think, more deep-seated than a feeling of need to quote ‘others’, more intrinsic of direct experience than what teachers can say with words. More perceptive than  ‘has to work on reaching’ - as a reactive dualistic perspective on what is a a completely open ended expansion of consciousness. More all encompassing than being outside of psychological time in the awareness, actualized being outside of physical time; times to go to work, times to eat lunch, times to leave work, etc. Deeper than the duality of these things implying any ‘craving’ - more clarity on projections in interpretation & perspective. Without freed consciousness, ‘another’ ‘must’ have cravings, ‘another’ ‘must’ have seeking, no. Expansion does not need duality, it only holds it back, keeps status quo. And then there is access through consciousness such as out of body, paranormal, inconsistent ‘reality’, premonition, interaction with Aline’s, etc, etc. There is nothing “done” about infinity. You are all that is, the bar is were you place it, if you place it. Or not of course. 

After I have clearly seen the nature of non-duality in my experience, I get to verify the authority. As I said in my previous post, I don't go by authority; I verify if they are saying the truth based on my own experience. I quote people only when I know that they are saying the truth. But this can only happen when the dream is completely transcended. The dream still continues but you are really out of it.. And it is clear you don't have any idea of what I am talking about. So, I can only give you a warning; Don't fool yourself... That is all I can say... All nonsense about interactions with aliens and paranormal stuff is within the dream. There is really no difference between walking on a road and flying in the sky. Both of them happens within the dream of duality.

What you have written is exactly how the mind interprets non-duality without transcending duality. For me, most of the posts that you have made shows evidently and clearly that your whole understanding of enlightenment and spiritual path is wrong. Ask any truly enlightened person, his response will be the same as mine. 

I am seeing a dangerous trend in this forum. It is walking straight on the road to become a delusional cult. Now, Ramana Maharshi can be wrong, Osho can be wrong, Nisargadatta can be wrong, Buddha can be wrong and every genuine guru that I have verified is wrong; But a 6 delusional people (whoever taught you this nonsense) is right! Good luck with that.

Again, don't bring the authority bias in. I will be the first person to speak against authority bias; my authority is what I have seen as truth without a single iota of doubt; It is the truth that I have seen after about 25 years of seeking (starting from age 10, in reality) with tremendous suffering, extensive reading, tears, pains, suicide attempts, depression, mental masturbation, yoga etc, you name it! I still haven't seen one person in my life who has gone through whatever I have gone through. I have spent hundreds of sleepless nights when I was 15, staring at the stars, wondering about the existence and trying to make sense of it. 

I also know that you will interpret what I have said just now from your state of mind... But I have said all I can say. Your thought process clearly reflects that you are still a seeker. So don't fool yourself and wipe out the layer of arrogance that has formed in your mind..

And stop trying to figure out enlightenment by thinking and mental masturbation! That is never going to happen, even after having tons of spiritual experiences.. Because, as soon as the experience is over, you are back in duality, interpreting a memory through the filters of duality.

 

[Hsinav]

4 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

So to be clear, you are essentially saying that Osho, Ramana Maharshi and Eckhart Tolle doesn't understand it but you understand it.. Is that correct?

(By the way, whatever I said is not based on just authority; but also based on my experience.)

Eckhart ones said he went deeper and deeper into being for years before he took action in the world of form after his awakening.

[Shanmugam]

@Hsinav Yes... As I have said from the beginning, the deepening happens automatically.. But it is not about going to a 'higher stage'... To be clear, it is none of what many people here are talking about. My own reality is deepening every day and it is not in my control. As I said, you first have to be enlightened to really understand what is deepening is about. Can you mentally conceive a life that happens in the absence of psychological time? Only when the psychological time is there, there is an anticipation for a higher or a deeper state.

Read the following verses from Ashtavakra Gita, especially the ones which are in bold.  This is not a teaching; this is pretty much a good attempt to describe the enlightened 'state':

1.8 The thought: “I am the doer” is the bite of a poisonous snake. To know: “I do nothing” is the wisdom of faith. Be happy.

1.13 Meditate on this: “I am Awareness alone–Unity itself.” Give up the idea that you are separate, a person, that there is within and without.

1.19 Just as a mirror exists both within and without the image reflected, the Supreme Self exists both within and without the body.

1.20 Just as the same space exists both within and without a jar, the timeless, all-pervasive One exists as Totality.

2.5 Look closely at cloth, you see only threads. Look closely at creation, you see only Self.

3.10 A great soul witnesses his body’s actions as if they were another’s. How can praise or blame disturb him?

15.6 Realize Self in All and All in Self. Be free of personal identity and the sense of “mine.” Be happy

15.11 Let the waves of the universe rise and fall as they will. You have nothing to gain or lose. You are the ocean.

16.1 You can recite and discuss scripture all you want, but until you drop everything you will never know Truth.

16.8 Indulgence creates attachment. Aversion creates abstinence. Like a child, the sage is free of both and thus lives on as a child.

16.9 One who is attached to the world thinks renouncing it will relieve his misery. One who is attached to nothing is free and does not feel miserable even in the world.

16.10 He who claims liberation as his own, as an attainment of a person, is neither enlightened nor a seeker. He suffers his own misery.

17.4 Rare in the world is one who does not relish past enjoyments, nor yearn for enjoyments to come.

17.5 Those who desire pleasure and those who desire liberation are both common in the world. Rare is the great soul who desires neither enjoyment nor liberation.

17.17 The liberated one neither avoids experience nor craves it. He enjoys what comes and what does not.

18.9 Knowing for certain that all is Self, the sage has no trace of thoughts such as “I am this” or “I am not that.”

18.37 Because he desires to know God, the ignorant man can never become That. The wise man is God because he is free of desire and knows nothing.

18.40 For he who thinks knowledge is things and ideas how can there be Self-knowledge? The wise do not see separate things– only the timeless Self.

18.42 Some believe in existence; others believe nothing exists. Rare is the one who believes nothing and is never confused.

18.43 Weak intellectuals may believe the Self is One without other. But being mired in illusion they do not actually know Self, so live out their lives in misery.

18.49 The sage does whatever appears to be done without thinking of good or bad. His actions are those of a child.

18.55 Though his servants, sons, wives, daughters, grandchildren and all his relatives ridicule and despise him, the yogi is undismayed.

18.56 Though pleased he is not pleasured; though pained he does not suffer. This wonderful state is understood only by those like him.

18.58 Even doing nothing the dull one is anxious and distracted. Even amidst great action the wise one remains still.

[Hsinav]

2 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

@Hsinav Yes... As I have said from the beginning, the deepening happens automatically.. But it is not about going to a 'higher stage'... To be clear, it is none of what many people here are talking about. My own reality is deepening every day and it is not in my control. As I said, you first have to be enlightened to really understand what is deepening is about. Can you mentally conceive a life that happens in the absence of psychological time? Only when the psychological time is there, there is an anticipation for a higher or a deeper state.

Read the following verses from Ashtavakra Gita, especially the ones which are in bold.  This is not a teaching; this is pretty much a good attempt to describe the enlightened 'state':

1.8 The thought: “I am the doer” is the bite of a poisonous snake. To know: “I do nothing” is the wisdom of faith. Be happy.

1.13 Meditate on this: “I am Awareness alone–Unity itself.” Give up the idea that you are separate, a person, that there is within and without.

1.19 Just as a mirror exists both within and without the image reflected, the Supreme Self exists both within and without the body.

1.20 Just as the same space exists both within and without a jar, the timeless, all-pervasive One exists as Totality.

2.5 Look closely at cloth, you see only threads. Look closely at creation, you see only Self.

3.10 A great soul witnesses his body’s actions as if they were another’s. How can praise or blame disturb him?

15.6 Realize Self in All and All in Self. Be free of personal identity and the sense of “mine.” Be happy

15.11 Let the waves of the universe rise and fall as they will. You have nothing to gain or lose. You are the ocean.

16.1 You can recite and discuss scripture all you want, but until you drop everything you will never know Truth.

16.8 Indulgence creates attachment. Aversion creates abstinence. Like a child, the sage is free of both and thus lives on as a child.

16.9 One who is attached to the world thinks renouncing it will relieve his misery. One who is attached to nothing is free and does not feel miserable even in the world.

16.10 He who claims liberation as his own, as an attainment of a person, is neither enlightened nor a seeker. He suffers his own misery.

17.4 Rare in the world is one who does not relish past enjoyments, nor yearn for enjoyments to come.

17.5 Those who desire pleasure and those who desire liberation are both common in the world. Rare is the great soul who desires neither enjoyment nor liberation.

17.17 The liberated one neither avoids experience nor craves it. He enjoys what comes and what does not.

18.9 Knowing for certain that all is Self, the sage has no trace of thoughts such as “I am this” or “I am not that.”

18.37 Because he desires to know God, the ignorant man can never become That. The wise man is God because he is free of desire and knows nothing.

18.40 For he who thinks knowledge is things and ideas how can there be Self-knowledge? The wise do not see separate things– only the timeless Self.

18.42 Some believe in existence; others believe nothing exists. Rare is the one who believes nothing and is never confused.

18.43 Weak intellectuals may believe the Self is One without other. But being mired in illusion they do not actually know Self, so live out their lives in misery.

18.49 The sage does whatever appears to be done without thinking of good or bad. His actions are those of a child.

18.55 Though his servants, sons, wives, daughters, grandchildren and all his relatives ridicule and despise him, the yogi is undismayed.

18.56 Though pleased he is not pleasured; though pained he does not suffer. This wonderful state is understood only by those like him.

18.58 Even doing nothing the dull one is anxious and distracted. Even amidst great action the wise one remains still.

@Shanmugam Thanks, i´ll read them carefully.

[Shanmugam]

I always get a lot of coincidences when it comes to Osho. There are many instances in the last one year connected with Osho. When I say something, I sometimes get to see an Osho's quote randomly which almost backs the statement up. I don't know how this is happening but I don't add anything to it with my imagination to fill this up. (This is happening ever since my son was born; he was born on Dec 11th, which is Osho's birthday. It seems to be creepy ).

And this is what I found today when I was scrolling my Facebook page a little while ago:

[Hsinav]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I know you guys love to split hairs about this stuff.

The question is enlightenment binary or not can not be considered hairsplitting, for most spiritual seekers that would be one of the most fundamental question there is.

[Shanmugam]

1 hour ago, brovakhiin said:

Enlightenment has many faces

Realizing no-self vs self = binary

that doesn't mean there isn't more truths to become conscious of

so in a way I see it as multiple sets of binaries, making the whole package non-binary

You must be a member of the Leo cult...

Do you understand what is really being discussed here? Did you read all the posts carefully? Do you think you can come to a conclusion about enlightenment based on your opinions and speculations? Have you ever tried to learn what non-duality is all about, outside of actualized.org? 

First of all, let us not confuse between two things here:

From the absolute standpoint, there are no 'enlightened' people; there are no multiple people and there are no divisions like 'binary'.. But this is not a valid objection here. What we are discussing here is actually from relative standpoint.

There is an old analogy. It talks about mistaking a rope for a snake and compares enlightenment to realizing that there was no snake in the first place. So in this scenario, either you see a snake or see a rope! You cannot see the snake and the rope at the same time. This is a simple analogy that has been repeated over and over again for centuries by many people who have really seen the truth.And this is a simple example of what I am trying to say.

Many people intellectually understand non-duality and do mental masturbation forever based on that. That is happening a lot in this forum. 

If you feel that there are going to be multiple realizations or deeper experiences, it is actually an indication that you are walking on the spiritual path and still seeking; But you would be doing a blunder if you conclude that this is how it is going to be for your entire life, even after enlightenment. 

Let me put it in a different way.. You will go through multiple awakening experiences which will seem to take you nearer to the truth. It feels like peeling the layers of an onion one by one.. But the problem here is, many people here including Leo Gura has come to a premature conclusion that this process of peeling the layers of onion never ends... That is where you are all going wrong. It may seem to be never ending but it certainly ends. Then there is a whole new beginning, which is absolutely indescribable. Then you don't care about another awakening experience anymore, because  something that kept that search going is totally out of the equation now.

For your information, what is being communicated in actualized.org is totally different from how enlightened people actually see the reality and how they have talked about it. I have already given a few example to state that how Leo totally contradicts with every genuine enlightened person that the world knows of . If you still think that Osho, Nisargadatta, Ramana, Buddha and Shankara are wrong but Leo Gura (who admits that he is not enlightened) is right, then it is up to you.. I just felt like give you guys a warning... Because, you are actually talking to a person who died and reborn after about 25 years of seeking, including 12 years of walking a well trodden spiritual path.