Two Different Nirvikalpa Samadhis

[Deep]

I came across a wonderful article, written by Dr. Harsh Luthar, about nirvikalpa samadhi. He has a wonderful blog about enlightenment. If you have time, read it. Hereis a link: https://luthar.com/2013/06/06/nirvikalpa-samadhi-two-different-perspectives/ 

Nirvikalpa translates to "without differences" and samadhi means merging with the Self. 

To summarize the article, Dr. Luthar says there are two types of nirvikalpa samadhi: 

Nirvikalpa samadhi #1- In this samadhi, the Kundalini shakti goes from the base of the spine, to the Sahasrara (crown chakra). It goes through all the chakras and the person experiences bliss. The experience feels so GOOD that the person doesn't want to come back to egoic consciousness. This is the most common one we hear about. 

Nirvikalpa samadhi #2- In this samadhi, the Kundalini shakti can bypass the chakras and go straight to the Sahasrara. Afterwards it goes to the Spiritual Heart at the right side of the chest. This is taught by Ramana Maharshi (RM).

According to Ramana Maharshi, Sahaja samadhi is more advanced than nirvikalpa. Here is a conversation where RM talks about the difference between nirvikalpa and sahaja: 

In sleep the mind is alive but merged in oblivion (see (4) above). - In kevala nirvikalpa samAdhi, the mind is alive but merged in light, like a bucket with rope lowered into a well, that can be drawn out again. - In sahaja nirvikalpa samAdhi, the mind is dead , resolved into the Self, like a river discharged into the ocean - its identity lost - and which can never be re-directed from the ocean, once discharged into it. 
(Talk 187)

Link: http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/samadhi_ramana.htm

In many conversations, RM says sahaja samadhi is the natural state. The natural state can mean anything. It can mean whatever we're experiencing right now. It can mean being in a child-like state. A lot of masters say nice things out of compassion. I'm guessing Sahaja samadhi is when the kundalini remains at the Spiritual Heart permanently. 

Here are some people who claim to have a kundalini awakening (experienced nirvikalpa samadhi) in the west: 

Vivek Govekar 

Craig Holliday 

channel: Val secrets 

[Leo Gura]

Well, #2 isn't really Nirvikalpa, because it is Sahaja!

But yeah. And there are many more realizations and states than those 2.

[Deep]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, #2 isn't really Nirvikalpa, because it is Sahaja!

According to the article, it's kevala (only) nirvikalpa samadhi because the mind can come out of it. I assumed sahaja samadhi is when the kundalini permanently rests in the Spiritual Heart because Sri Ramana says sahaja is unbroken, continuous samadhi. He hasn't specifically said kundalini is related to sahaja. 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Deep

[Leo Gura]

@Deep Yes, Sahaja is supposed to be a permanent Nirvikalpa.

[onacloudynight]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, #2 isn't really Nirvikalpa, because it is Sahaja!

But yeah. And there are many more realizations and states than those 2.

Wait is there a higher state then Sahaja? Or is that the highest.

[Leo Gura]

On 3/18/2018 at 8:29 PM, onacloudynight said:

Wait is there a higher state then Sahaja? Or is that the highest.

How would you know?

[Shanmugam]

On 3/19/2018 at 8:59 AM, onacloudynight said:

Wait is there a higher state then Sahaja? Or is that the highest.

What do you mean by 'higher' here? Obviously, it is not about a measure of vertical distance... The ideas such as something is 'higher', 'superior' etc is something that is tied to self-concept; It is exactly what  people are trying to get rid of by walking on the spiritual path in the first place. When we talk about nirvikalpa (devoid of distinctions), sahaja (fully functioning in the world with nirvikalpa), we are talking about something indescribable.

People who are saying that there is something higher than sahaja are not only deluded, but they are  also leading other people straight to the delusion. Because, you know you are in sahaja when you can't really think of something that is higher. You know you are in sahaja when you stop asking for 'what is more?' because it is completely out of the question. 

Enlightenment is the  end of craving for 'more' or craving for 'higher'. Onlookers may still compare one enlightened person to another, and discuss who is higher or superior. But the person who is living in sahaja doesn't see the world the same way. 

Sahaja is where such psychological measurement of 'height' breaks.. To be more precise, you come to realize that such a thing doesn't exist at all. Then life is a permanent vacation; it becomes a joyful game.

It is really funny how ego plays games and distorts each and everything to its own advantage. 

[Deep]

On 3/18/2018 at 11:29 PM, onacloudynight said:

Wait is there a higher state then Sahaja? Or is that the highest.

I think Leo was saying there are a lot of realizations along the way to sahaja but sahaja is the highest. Since Sahaja is a permanent, nirvikalpa there can't be any levels within it. 

 

52 minutes ago, brovakhiin said:

I don't know about this. If the person has truly merged with the Self then all preferences and self-relating cease. Samadhi, delusion, neither one is better, feeling good, feeling bad, it stops mattering. That's my experience atleast. Being in samadhi and having crystal clear clarity feels amazing no doubt, but there's a certain inflection point where any preference over state or even consciousness falls away entirely and egoic delusion is invited back in with open arms just the same.

According to the article, when the kundalini goes to Sahasrara (crown chakra), the person loses body consciousness. They can no longer feel the body or use it. If they don't come back from samadhi (the kundalini comes down from Sahasrara), they can die in 21 days. I said it "feels good" because the body is a limitation we have. We have to take care of the body and so it's like "burden" we carry while we're experiencing it. You're right, there is no such thing as good or bad, but that was the only way I could describe it. 

[Deep]

@brovakhiin Yes, we have to experience it to know if it's true or not. 

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Deep said:

I think Leo was saying there are a lot of realizations along the way to sahaja but sahaja is the highest. Since Sahaja is a permanent, nirvikalpa there can't be any levels within it.

No, I was saying, how would know you've reached the highest stage of awakening?

The whole problem is, you can't know.

You might think you're at the highest, but you could be wrong.

I've experienced so many degrees of awakening at this point that I'm having to stop saying "This is it!" because as soon as I say that, the next week or month I find something deeper.

This is a very tricky issue because every awakening feels like it's the deepest and nothing could be deeper.

If you think you've reached the end, you're probably kidding yourself. There exist superhuman levels of consciousness which cannot even be conceived of by most ordinary meditators or enlightened teachers. There seem to be states of consciousness so great that they may not even be reachable through natural biological means. States so great that they could not be spoken of at all.

This is why spirituality becomes so contentious. It's very hard to compare the states of various people. Especially if you've never achieved those states yourself. The point is, you cannot make these comparisons while keyboard jockeying on this forum. The only way to really know is to become a fully enlightened master and see how far you are able to get. Otherwise, you've got no chance of figuring out what is "the end".

Everyone will of course tend to disagree about what "the end" is, because no one is going to admit, "I haven't reached the end." Consciousness also breeds arrogance.

This topic is beyond the scope of what most people here can fathom. It requires decades of careful study and hardcore practice. This is way beyond the realm of Neo-Advaita teachings or YT videos or experiencing no-self.

[Nahm]

@Deep I thought samadhi was it, then the revealing there is only me was it, then inconsistent reality presented itself and wow, that was it, then aliens presented themselves and holy shit that was “it”,  then this everpresent unconditional love flowing through everything bringing me to my knees crying everyday was “it” for sure. How could there possibly be more I thought.  Now it appears infinite could not be binary, unmistakable, or ever “done”.  I think I’m getting comfortable being the fool over and over again. Very fun. Who fuckin knows what else there is. 

[Shanmugam]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, I was saying, how would know you've reached the highest stage of awakening?

The whole problem is, you can't know.

You might think you're at the highest, but you could be wrong.

I've experienced so many degrees of awakening at this point that I'm having to stop saying "This is it!" because as soon as I say that, the next week or month I find something deeper.

This is a very tricky issue because every awakening feels like it's the deepest and nothing could be deeper.

If you think you've reached the end, you're probably kidding yourself. There exist superhuman levels of consciousness which cannot even be conceived of by most ordinary meditators or enlightened teachers. There seem to be states of consciousness so great that they may not even be reachable through natural biological means. States so great that they could not be spoken of at all.

This is why spirituality becomes so contentious. It's very hard to compare the states of various people. Especially if you've never achieved those states yourself. The point is, you cannot make these comparisons while keyboard jockeying on this forum. The only way to really know is to become a fully enlightened master and see how far you are able to get. Otherwise, you've got no chance of figuring out what is "the end".

Everyone will of course tend to disagree about what "the end" is, because no one is going to admit, "I haven't reached the end." Consciousness also breeds arrogance.

This topic is beyond the scope of what most people here can fathom. It requires decades of careful study and hardcore practice. This is way beyond the realm of Neo-Advaita teachings or YT videos or experiencing no-self.

In another thread, you were talking about how when you look at Osho, Sadhguru or Echkart Tolle you realize that they are not fooling around.  And in this post, you are actually saying that all these people are wrong! Because, not only these three,  people like Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Shankara and every else also say the same thing.. There are no levels in enlightenment..

Logically what you are saying may seem to be true to you. But the problem is, in enlightenment, one variable is completely out of the equation. And your way of thinking assumes that that variable is still going to be there after enlightenment.

It is not really about how deeply you felt in a certain experience or what kind of altered state of consciousness that you experienced. When we talk about enlightenment, we are talking about a totally unaltered state of consciousness! Any kind of higher or lower state is nothing but an alteration  in consciousness. 

Quote

You might think you're at the highest, but you could be wrong.

Yes.. If someone 'thinks' they are in the highest, they are wrong... But there is no need to think you are in the highest... Non-duality is not about reaching a 'highest' state; reaching a 'highest state' is a part of the regular rat race. So when someone thinks he has reached the highest state, he is definitely wrong. A highest state implies a journey between A and B... But sahaja or enlightenment is when you realize that A and B are the same, that there is no journey at all!

Quote

I've experienced so many degrees of awakening at this point that I'm having to stop saying "This is it!" because as soon as I say that, the next week or month I find something deeper.

This will actually happen probably a thousand times or more... But you are making a conclusion about the whole thing at this stage. At enlightenment, you don't even have to say or conclude 'this is it'! You know that this is it. And you will understand 'why' only after enlightenment. Because, no matter how intelligent you are, no matter what 'level' of consciousness that you reach, until you are really enlightened your thinking will assume that the variable (which will be out of the equation after enlightenment) is still going to exist in sahaja..

So, even the question 'is there a higher level of awakening or consciousness' will not make sense to you when you are in sahaja. And this is true!  Here, you need to also realize that you are going completely against all these people who taught about enlightenment to you in the first place! 

 

[Faceless]

2 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

Quote

You might think you're at the highest, but you could be wrong.

Yes.. If someone 'thinks' they are in the highest, they are wrong... But there is no need to think you are in the highest... Non-duality is not about reaching a 'highest' state; reaching a 'highest state' is a part of the regular rat race. So when someone thinks he has reached the highest state, he is definitely wrong. A highest state implies a journey between A and B... But sahaja or enlightenment is when you realize that A and B are the same, that there is no journey at all!

Seems reasonable that only an ego/self wants to move to higher state. When i had this univinted freedom from self i actully felt as if I dropped to a lower state. Perhaps the lowest state possible. Very strange but that is the first feeling I had. It seemed as if any higher state was always moving into falseness, illusion, and deception. 

But I do see that this feeling of a lower/lowest  state was actully the result of absnesce of measure. 

If I told someone I’m in the lowest state possible they wouldn’t understand why i now enjoy life so much and why I am problem free. Psychologically of course ?

Edited March 21, 2018 by Faceless

[Deep]

@Leo Gura @Nahm Both of you are speaking from ego.  It's the ego's job to be discontent and hope for something more or "higher". Let me break down what you said. 

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, I was saying, how would know you've reached the highest stage of awakening?

The whole problem is, you can't know.

You might think you're at the highest, but you could be wrong.

When you say highest stage of awakening, that's you trying to conceptualize awareness. Awareness can never be described with words. Sahaja samadhi is not described as the "highest" stage by any master. It's a permanent ego death so there is no more seeking. 

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you think you've reached the end, you're probably kidding yourself. There exist superhuman levels of consciousness which cannot even be conceived of by most ordinary meditators or enlightened teachers. There seem to be states of consciousness so great that they may not even be reachable through natural biological means. States so great that they could not be spoken of at all.

That's you trying to push your psychedelic propaganda there. That's not going to help people gain mastery. 

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is why spirituality becomes so contentious. It's very hard to compare the states of various people. Especially if you've never achieved those states yourself. The point is, you cannot make these comparisons while keyboard jockeying on this forum. The only way to really know is to become a fully enlightened master and see how far you are able to get. Otherwise, you've got no chance of figuring out what is "the end".

I agree but I'm not in a hurry to get to the end. I'm God so I don't have any ending. Why do you assume people here haven't experienced anything? While it's true that experiencing God is more fun than being on actualized.org, some people could be here out of the goodness of their heart.

 

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Everyone will of course tend to disagree about what "the end" is, because no one is going to admit, "I haven't reached the end." Consciousness also breeds arrogance.

They can't say, "they haven't reached the end" because they're eternal. They have feeling of being eternal. You've had a few glimpses of the Truth on 5-meo (God knows if that's even true) and now you're trying to conceptualize it. It's clear you haven't experienced any samadhi.   

I agree with @Shanmugam that enlightenment is binary. Typically the end is described as all of our past lives flashing before us like a movie reel. Then we've broken free from the cycle of karma. 

[Nahm]

@Deep nah. That I am discontent or hoping for anything is a projection from your limited dualistic understanding. 

[Faceless]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This topic is beyond the scope of what most people here can fathom. It requires decades of careful study and hardcore practice.

It’s actully the opposite. The wisest of beings will agree and can see the falsness of this statement. 

Time leads to more time. Action according to the movement of thought will never lead to the timeless. This type of action is incomplete. 

Only complete action which is action without motive, effort, volition is a timeless movement. 

This accumulation of knowledge and progression leads one in the opposite direction when it comes to embodiment. 

The wisest soon or a later seem to see/understand that all the knowledge/practices obtained must be negated in order to exit the realm of measure. 

This action of perception is uninvited. I had not accumulated any form of knowledge at all when this happened. It was instant. Although I did spend a lot of time in a forest setting alone. Paying attention to the happening of my internal movements and the external environment. But there was no goal other than to watch, listen, observe. 

Only in my own personal interest and perhaps to communicate has there been a reason for the faculty of thought to operate. 

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Faceless

[abrakamowse]

@Faceless  I was on Jed Mc Kenna forums and when I told him that If it was possible to achieve enlightenment or liberation doing basically "nothing" he said that I (the egoic I) was being lazy and didn't want to do the work.

 

I agree with that but I also have doubts about it. I also talked about this also with @Leo Gura in a post, and he shares that POV too. But, deep inside me I feel that everything I do to achieve enlightenment actually sends me farther from realization.

 

What do you guys think?

Edited March 21, 2018 by abrakamowse

[Deep]

@Nahm Sorry, I misunderstood what you said earlier. 

[Faceless]

@abrakamowse

This is what makes things complicated

‘Doing nothing’ still implies a motive. It’s a resistance to our very nature. We are action. We cannot do nothing. 

And It also depends on demeanor or the reason that one chooses to do nothing. If there is a movement of negation due to laziness or resistance to act because ‘negative or positive’ beliefs/assumptions about oneself then yes this is not correct grounds for negation. 

The action of negation comes with the perception that somthing is so obviously utterly false. And in that seeing/understanding the whole of something becomes it’s own action of intelligence that indicates that that is not the way to go about things.  So when we see something as totally undeniably false that action acts on its own. 

Because if we see somthing as false and perhaps dangerous, we don’t think then act, we just act. This is an action born of intelligence. Intelligent response ‘action that is whole’ comes with the understanding the limits of thought, which is where the self/ego is born.

The best advice I can give is to drop the whole motive to become enlightened. And the fact is that you could be chasing somthing that doesn’t even exsist. 

And this movement to ‘become free’ is in fact the very movment away from facing what is and the reason people never become free. 

Volition to become leads to and perpetuates  psychological conflict. The attempt to escape what is actually happening to what you want to happen is contradicting and only causes confusion and further conflict. And If this conflict proceeds the stronger the ego becomes. 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Faceless

[abrakamowse]

@Faceless I got you, thanks for the guidance.