Enlightenment happens outside the dream

[Saumaya]

I haven't seen anyone talking about this so I thought I would share this insight, if this helps someone then that would be great.

Enlightenment or any kind of awakening doesn't happen within the dream. By "outside the dream" I don't mean some other dimension, but Absolute Truth itself. In earlier enlightenment experiences you may get glimpses of Absolute truth, but thats not exactly the right way of expressing it. It is more like Absolute truth is glimpsing itself. In enlightenment, enlightenment becomes enlightened,  not you. The false self cannot pass through the gateless gate, not even a microscopic inch of it. 

My point is that you are not working towards enlightenment. You are letting enlightenment become enlightened. Dream exists within duality. Non duality(Absolute Truth) cannot exist in duality. This includes you and the world. Only Absolute Truth remains because its the only thing that is true.

Hope this helps 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Saumaya

[vanish]

There's no outside, there's only outside when you are inside, without you inside there's only it. And to become it you have to awaken, which is the ultimate spiritual release.

[Saumaya]

3 hours ago, vanish said:

There's no outside, there's only outside when you are inside, without you inside there's only it. And to become it you have to awaken, which is the ultimate spiritual release.

"Dream exists within duality. Non duality(Absolute Truth) cannot exist in duality. This includes you and the world." 

Did you even read what was said lol

"Only if we believe that words could accurately or inaccurately depict reality would we ever concern ourselves with speaking ‘correct non-dual lingo’ – otherwise we’re free to use language in any way we want; because we know that we aren’t trying to capture reality in concepts – we’re merely trying to invoke an intuitive sense of what the the words could point to in direct experience."

[Ningmo]

Is it like the metaphor of Screen and movie?  The ultimate reality is the screen. All there is screen. There is no way for the movie character to find the screen within the movie.

[Neo]

OK, How do you square the following; in self enquiry, we are asked to keep asking "who am I", it's not something that you try the first time, you keep going at it,... with the fact it is said that it is "NOW" / power of now etc. Are we then to assume that the "now" is a metaphor and the type of thinking needs to be in the present? I can hear you replying already saying that you're already enlightened blah blah, I am asking a question on a PRACTICAL level.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Neo

[Ether]

@Neo he tends to like to give metaphors

[Ether]

@Neo he tends to like to give metaphors

[Neo]

Who does?

[Nahm]

53 minutes ago, Neo said:

OK, How do you square the following; in self enquiry, we are asked to keep asking "who am I", it's not something that you try the first time, you keep going at it,... with the fact it is said that it is "NOW" / power of now etc. Are we then to assume that the "now" is a metaphor and the type of thinking needs to be in the present? I can hear you replying already saying that you're already enlightened blah blah, I am asking a question on a PRACTICAL level.

Now is appearance within nothingness. This is what you are, absolute nothingness, experiencing an appearance of you as people and things and universe, etc.  It’s an experience of Self, in comparison to something specifically in the body, which is just a thought happening in the now. Any way you slice it, it’s you. 

[Telepresent]

1 hour ago, Neo said:

OK, How do you square the following; in self enquiry, we are asked to keep asking "who am I", it's not something that you try the first time, you keep going at it,... with the fact it is said that it is "NOW" / power of now etc. Are we then to assume that the "now" is a metaphor and the type of thinking needs to be in the present? I can hear you replying already saying that you're already enlightened blah blah, I am asking a question on a PRACTICAL level.

The problem I see with "who am I?" is that it gives a concession to the idea of "I", so many seem to search for an object.  And as we move beyond body/mind/whatever on a physical/mental/emotional level, we might start trying to attach "I" to awareness, consciousness, Now, whatever.  The thing is that doing that - just by creating the label 'awareness', 'consciousness', 'Now', we are creating an object.  And the actuality of 'Now' cannot be an object.  So the word Now, the thought Now, the idea Now, is never true.  Never.

However... Now is true (just not whatever you think of when you think of that word!)  Meaning the Truth is True.  Now and always now, timeless and spaceless and infinite.  So 'Now' is both a metaphor (as all words are signs, not the actual thing), but also the only True thing.  But those two 'Nows' - the thought and the Truth - are not the same thing.

The True Now contrary to thought, because thought is an agent of objectification, of division.  Every thought creates two.  The meaning of every thought is false.  But we can use thought against itself, to deconstruct the conceptual world it has built and see what is actually True.  

So if you're approaching self-enquiry attempting to answer the question "Who am I", you will never succeed (which I guess is the idea, that eventually you recognise that you're just not there), but I wonder if people get stuck here.  If you try to answer the question by attaching to 'Now', saying "I am Now" or "I am the truth", you've failed.  I don't like the question "Who am I" for this reason.  I much prefer "What is true?" or "What am I made of?", and digging and digging and digging and not being satisfied with any answer that arises.  Because every answer, every definition, every thought, can still be deconstructed further

[Joseph Maynor]

I kind of agree with this.  It’s pointing in the right direction.  

Edited March 6, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Saumaya]

7 hours ago, Ningmo said:

Is it like the metaphor of Screen and movie?  The ultimate reality is the screen. All there is screen. There is no way for the movie character to find the screen within the movie.

Yes

[Saumaya]

6 hours ago, Neo said:

OK, How do you square the following; in self enquiry, we are asked to keep asking "who am I", it's not something that you try the first time, you keep going at it,... with the fact it is said that it is "NOW" / power of now etc. Are we then to assume that the "now" is a metaphor and the type of thinking needs to be in the present? I can hear you replying already saying that you're already enlightened blah blah, I am asking a question on a PRACTICAL level.

The insight doesnt have any practical implication really, just be aware that enlightenment happens outside the dream.

How can you be anywhere else other than now.

[Neo]

Is it true that if I say "think of something that's not a concept", this is impossible?

 

The near breakthrough moment I had sometime ago, was when pondering "Am I an object or the observer?" but I must have understood while saying that, that both are concepts and so I am neither. The temptation while doing this is to break yourself in two and imagine that the ego of me is an asleep object and there's a higher me which can act as an observer but again, this all becomes conceptual, like a catch 22. However I can't deny that meditating on this can "do" something?

Edited March 7, 2018 by Neo

[Telepresent]

1 hour ago, Neo said:

"think of something that's not a concept"

Problem there is the word 'of': the 'of' is neither the true essence of the thought (the true essence being a mental sound, picture, etc.), but the 'of' is not the actual thing being thought of either.  It's kind of magic

[Saumaya]

2 hours ago, Neo said:

Is it true that if I say "think of something that's not a concept", this is impossible?

 

Yes

2 hours ago, Neo said:

The near breakthrough moment I had sometime ago, was when pondering "Am I an object or the observer?" but I must have understood while saying that, that both are concepts and so I am neither.

Nice

[dorg]

10 hours ago, Neo said:

The near breakthrough moment I had sometime ago, was when pondering "Am I an object or the observer?" but I must have understood while saying that, that both are concepts and so I am neither. The temptation while doing this is to break yourself in two and imagine that the ego of me is an asleep object and there's a higher me which can act as an observer but again, this all becomes conceptual, like a catch 22. However I can't deny that meditating on this can "do" something?

What is conceptual in this is that you have imagined (conceptified) yourself as someone/something that can further conceptify or split itself into something asleep and something observing. This does not become conceptual as you say, it all is conceptual. Fully seeing this is the breakout you talk of.

If you think you are living on earth, you are living as a concept in a concept. This is a widespread believed in concept is it not.

Edited March 7, 2018 by dorg

[Guest Quanty]

Too much explanation without practicality

One has to make the so called subconscious mind/state of rem sleep conscious. Simple as that. But in the process you suffer detachment from your mind/personality/ego/duality. You can go crazy and lose yourself or get enlightened. Depends how much are you willing to sacrifice. Enlightenment is no joke, it will shatter your physicality and the personality will reconsolidate. Those who think enlightenment are pure concepts have no idea what enlightenment really is.

 

Namaste, Mfks!