Spiral dynamics - What about the evolution of relationships in post-orange phases?

[billiesimon]

I'm sorry for the clumsy questions, but I'm still new to spiral dynamics and to this area of psychology.

In this orange phase we can see that approaching and learning how to be social is still good and a attainable for men.

But... passing through green and yellow (and possible new phases) will it still be possible and acceptable for men to approach girls and explore the social world?

Or will it be forbidden for men to try to evolve themselves socially and sexually?

I'm asking it because in the blue phase it's clear that approaching is bad taste, because of religion, sexual repression, etc, in orange it's a nice thing to do, since it's in tune with the hustling mentality, but will it be ok for green and yellow?
Green seems to be very anti-male and anti-free speech, so I'm just guessing that a full implemented green stage would have men forbidden from the dating scene. 
Yellow I believe instead will be a very rational and funcional, equilibrated, stage, with lots of freedom. I actually like yellow  a lot.

What do you think?

[Epiphany_Inspired]

Hmmm...I don't know enough about it all to give you a proper answer, but I can offer some personal experience...should this be in the dating section?...anyway...as someone that's been at stage green for a very, very long time...personally, I like to be approached as a friend, if I get even a whiff of anything lacivious, it will seem creepy. For example: if you want to compliment, do it as a flirty friend (especially no comments about the body, orange may like that, but the greens I know find that in bad taste/ creepy). A compliment about our choice of empowering conversation topic, or how much you appriciate our rebellion against some authority...lol... would be something a new flirty friend might say... It's not that we would ever want to forbid men from our dating scene, it's more that we appriciate being respected regardless of gender and want friendship with likeminded individuals formost... I have no idea if this helps... I tried

 

[jwkspeck]

Nothing is forbidden. That is very rigid, a blue way of thinking. The stages are not denoting literal actions, but rather the motivations and results of actions. You can always evolve socially and sexually, and so on.

42 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

in the blue phase it's clear that approaching is bad taste... in orange it's a nice thing to do... but will it be ok for green and yellow?
Green seems to be very anti-male and anti-free speech... a full implemented green stage would have men forbidden from the dating scene. 
Yellow... will be a very rational and funcional, equilibrated, stage, with lots of freedom. I actually like yellow  a lot.

It's not like you'll just be in a stage and then move on - different areas of your psychology and your culture are in different stages. There is way more nuance here than you're giving credit. Even within dating and pick-up many aspects of your psychology come into play; there isn't just one stage having its influence on you and your interactions, so to speak.

This is a very flexible model, don't make it out to be so black and white. And remember that you have to go through every stage!

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, billiesimon said:

Green seems to be very anti-male and anti-free speech, so I'm just guessing that a full implemented green stage would have men forbidden from the dating scene.

What your ego interprets as anti-male and anti-free speech is really just compassion and concern for beings and perspectives beyond your own. Which to you looks anti-male because the only way you know how to be a male is by grabbing at things in a crude way.

Start noticing that your perspective is just one perspective, and that your male agenda is just one agenda.

How would you interact with the opposite sex if you actually cared about her well-being? If she wasn't just a means to an end for you?

Rather than looking at the world through the lens of: How do I evolve MYSELF? How do I get my male agenda satisfied? Try looking at the world through the lens of: We're all one community, how do I participate in this community in a caring manner? How can I authentically love all people more? How would I act if I didn't see males/females at all, but just people?

See, the problem with the pickup paradigm is that it's too much about getting YOUR needs met. That's because people get into pickup for that reason: they are very NEEDY, regardless of how successful or confident they appear on the surface. The most successful PUAs are still extremely needy. Their entire life revolves around getting their needs satisfied. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's a low level of consciousness.

If you are needy, that's okay. That's where you're at. Be honest about your neediness. Don't try to sugarcoat it with stories of consciousness and evolution and being alpha.

[hundreth]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What your ego interprets as anti-male and anti-free speech is really just compassion and concern for beings and perspectives beyond your own. Which to you looks anti-male because the only way you know how to be a male is by grabbing at things in a crude way.

Start noticing that your perspective is just one perspective, and that your male agenda is just one agenda.

How would you interact with the opposite sex if you actually cared about her well-being? If she wasn't just a means to an end for you?

Rather than looking at the world through the lens of: How do I evolve MYSELF? How do I get my male agenda satisfied? Try looking at the world through the lens of: We're all one community, how do I participate in this community in a caring manner? How can I authentically love all people more? How would I act if I didn't see males/females at all, but just people?

See, the problem with the pickup paradigm is that it's too much about getting YOUR needs met. That's because people get into pickup for that reason: they are very NEEDY, regardless of how successful or confident they appear on the surface. The most successful PUAs are still extremely needy. Their entire life revolves around getting their needs satisfied. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's a low level of consciousness.

If you are needy, that's okay. That's where you're at. Be honest about your neediness. Don't try to sugarcoat it with stories of consciousness and evolution and being alpha.

You don't think the current state of affairs has become toxic? I believe they are a necessary force, and they do bring compassion and concern to an extent, but what kind of compassions is this public shaming and militant silencing? 

There's compassion, and then there's virtue signaling, identity politics, victim mentality, and power games. 

Here's an example of someone who is non toxic green. If you look at her articles, she's the one who wrote the article about the shrooms study disproving the self.

"I’m already equal. So why do today’s feminists keep saying I’m oppressed?" https://qz.com/1210845/the-subconscious-sexism-of-todays-feminist-movement/

Her other article: "Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion" https://qz.com/1196408/scientists-studying-psilocybin-accidentally-proved-the-self-is-an-illusion/

Quote

Which to you looks anti-male because the only way you know how to be a male is by grabbing at things in a crude way.

Seriously dude? This is the conclusion you came to about this guy without ever meeting him or knowing anything about him, and you wonder why it's coming off anti-male?

[Shin]

The dude never said he's into pick up...

I don't understand this forum anymore ! ?

Edited March 1, 2018 by Shin

[billiesimon]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What your ego interprets as anti-male and anti-free speech is really just compassion and concern for beings and perspectives beyond your own. Which to you looks anti-male because the only way you know how to be a male is by grabbing at things in a crude way.

Start noticing that your perspective is just one perspective, and that your male agenda is just one agenda.

How would you interact with the opposite sex if you actually cared about her well-being? If she wasn't just a means to an end for you?

Rather than looking at the world through the lens of: How do I evolve MYSELF? How do I get my male agenda satisfied? Try looking at the world through the lens of: We're all one community, how do I participate in this community in a caring manner? How can I authentically love all people more? How would I act if I didn't see males/females at all, but just people?

See, the problem with the pickup paradigm is that it's too much about getting YOUR needs met. That's because people get into pickup for that reason: they are very NEEDY, regardless of how successful or confident they appear on the surface. The most successful PUAs are still extremely needy. Their entire life revolves around getting their needs satisfied. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's a low level of consciousness.

If you are needy, that's okay. That's where you're at. Be honest about your neediness. Don't try to sugarcoat it with stories of consciousness and evolution and being alpha.

I appreciate the reply, and I get the argument about the self agenda.

BUT LEO (quoting your videos xD), I'm not living my male interests in a crude and aggressive way. I respect people, and when I meet women I care about finding out about their personality. I'm not even interested in plain sex. I started pickup because I wanted to become social and find the right girls for relationships.

I'm not into the aggressive male mentality. I like sharing quality time with a girl, and possibly building a deep relationship.

I'm just saying that the green stage seems somehow anti-freedom.

But wanting myself to be free doesn't mean that I want others to be enslaved.

Yes, I feel needy sometimes, but I don't feel the need to bring violence to women. At all. I'm a pacifist and I just want to love the right partner. That's all.

I want women to be free, but also responsible for themselves. And I want everybody to be peaceful with the next person. I don't see anything wrong with wanting to become social and able to explore the social world. It's not a crude aggressive male mentality. People are ALREADY too antisocial today. 

Am I wrong?

Edited March 1, 2018 by billiesimon

[Ayilton]

It's difficult for man this days  ,  I notice this in clubs... Most of us are needy and  we blame on the females  for not getting our needs met ! 

Men feel very left out with the women empowerment ! That's why they vote people like Trump ( that's not the only reason of course) .

The change is massive  ,  men need to adapt  !  There is need to forget the old patriarchal paradigm.

[Haumea]

Don't worry about it.

Trump (among others, like Jordan B. Peterson) will kill Green as the leading edge by 2024.

Teal (you called it Yellow? Must be a different color code ;)) is coming in like a champ.

Bank on it.

Postmodernist identity politics is in its death throes.

It cannot survive as the leading edge, no matter how many cautionary books Ken Wilber writes.

Too toxic and destructive.  Incapable of resolving its own contradictions and simply unworkable in the real world (catastrophic results all around.)

The next stage will be very good.

Spend the next 6 years building up your own value, and don't worry about Greens.  They'll get louder and louder as the end comes.

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Haumea

[Samra]

@billiesimon There is no need to be worried about it. Because if you evolve to a new stage, whatever that may be, your approach to life will evolve as a whole. So your current tactics, concerns and daily issues will not be the same, or you will not tackle them the same way. For instance, you will not approach the same type of women as you did before, in the same manner, in the same locations, for the same reasons. You will seek a different type of persons, in a whole new settings, and you will attract each other differently than how and why you are doing it now. Or you may not seek at all. Your priorities, your agenda will be different. What im trying to say, is that you will find the answers once you get there. 

[Leo Gura]

A) You're free to date whoever you want, however you want. How you relate to people is almost entirely dependent on your level of consciousness.

B) Stage Green is a certain level of consciousness. You will have to surrender some ego to move into Stage Green. Then you will realize Green is a step above Orange but still has limitations. So you will have to surrender some more ego to move into Yellow. And so on.

If you're demonizing any of the stages, you're missing the point, and you certainly will have to drop those demonizations and judgments to evolve to higher stages.

Watch out about getting tribal or ideological about all these groups: men, women, academics, postmodernists, feminists, PUAs, liberal, conservative, etc. All of those groups are trap.

C) Be careful with over-identifying with Stage Green as you might see it on TV, etc. The key is to read the level's description in the Spiral Dynamics diagrams, and then ask yourself, "Okay, what do I need to do to embody that?" Moving up Spiral Dynamics is not about joining a group or a movement. It's about becoming personally more conscious. Whatever other people are doing, just ignore it and focus on setting your own consciousness straight.

[billiesimon]

1 hour ago, Samra said:

@billiesimon There is no need to be worried about it. Because if you evolve to a new stage, whatever that may be, your approach to life will evolve as a whole. So your current tactics, concerns and daily issues will not be the same, or you will not tackle them the same way. For instance, you will not approach the same type of women as you did before, in the same manner, in the same locations, for the same reasons. You will seek a different type of persons, in a whole new settings, and you will attract each other differently than how and why you are doing it now. Or you may not seek at all. Your priorities, your agenda will be different. What im trying to say, is that you will find the answers once you get there. 

Deep answer. Yeah, I want to evolve, and probably my tastes will change a lot.

[billiesimon]

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A) You're free to date whoever you want, however you want. How you relate to people is almost entirely dependent on your level of consciousness.

B) Stage Green is a certain level of consciousness. You will have to surrender some ego to move into Stage Green. Then you will realize Green is a step above Orange but still has limitations. So you will have to surrender some more ego to move into Yellow. And so on.

If you're demonizing any of the stages, you're missing the point, and you certainly will have to drop those demonizations and judgments to evolve to higher stages.

Watch out about getting tribal or ideological about all these groups: men, women, academics, postmodernists, feminists, PUAs, liberal, conservative, etc. All of those groups are trap.

C) Be careful with over-identifying with Stage Green as you might see it on TV, etc. The key is to read the level's description in the Spiral Dynamics diagrams, and then ask yourself, "Okay, what do I need to do to embody that?" Moving up Spiral Dynamics is not about joining a group or a movement. It's about becoming personally more conscious. Whatever other people are doing, just ignore it and focus on setting your own consciousness straight.

This reply is very clear, thanks man! The previous one was too tricky for me lol.

Yes, i still deeply identify with orange stage, mainly because I grew up in a very traditional, religious and moral family, so I grew out of stage blue as I finished high school. Now It's very hard for me to embrace a green phase since it mean going back to collectivism, which I despised a lot when I dropped religion and morals, in favor of success and growth.

I get it that green stage brings new ideas and progress to orange, but I feel it like some kind of regression to blue stage.

I actually want to skip it to yellow stage and see the world as the complex system that it is.

What do you suggest to do to grow up to new stages? Meditation?

[Haumea]

Quote

If you're demonizing any of the stages, you're missing the point, and you certainly will have to drop those demonizations and judgments to evolve to higher stages.

That's a fair statement.

Each stage taken to an extreme (which usually happens over time) is problematic, and each consequent stage is a response to the previous stage's extremes.

I'm sure by the mid-2040s Turquoise will similarly edge out Teal.

It is also fair to recognize the extremes of Green, their genesis, and their negative impact, since it is still the leading, though crumbling edge.

What began as an attempt to be compassionate and help the historically oppressed groups has become an enabling of their psychopathologies, which obviously doesn't help the people it purports to.  It is the devouring mother archetype.

From a spiritual point of view, the problem with Green is that, as I said, it enables Shadow projection.

The Victim Ego vs. The Oppressor Shadow.

This kind of paradigm must be transcended in order for spiritual evolution to continue past a certain point.

One must own their own "evil" shit (which is not so "evil" when recognized and integrated) and cease projecting it onto others.

[ppfeiff]

On 3/1/2018 at 1:45 PM, billiesimon said:

I'm sorry for the clumsy questions, but I'm still new to spiral dynamics and to this area of psychology.

In this orange phase we can see that approaching and learning how to be social is still good and a attainable for men.

But... passing through green and yellow (and possible new phases) will it still be possible and acceptable for men to approach girls and explore the social world?

Or will it be forbidden for men to try to evolve themselves socially and sexually?

I'm asking it because in the blue phase it's clear that approaching is bad taste, because of religion, sexual repression, etc, in orange it's a nice thing to do, since it's in tune with the hustling mentality, but will it be ok for green and yellow?
Green seems to be very anti-male and anti-free speech, so I'm just guessing that a full implemented green stage would have men forbidden from the dating scene. 
Yellow I believe instead will be a very rational and funcional, equilibrated, stage, with lots of freedom. I actually like yellow  a lot.

What do you think?

With regards to relationships, if a person's vMEME STACK (the collections of vMEMEs or colors you are for different facets of life, including relationships, sexuality, career, etc.) is green in this area, then socializing and sexuality has the potential to blossom, so long as the surrounding life conditions support it. GREEN = Community (for simplicity's sake).

In other words, if a person is GREEN in relationships, and lives in an environment where community is encouraged for example, then that person will probably strike-up some deep friendships or even loving relationships with others, with genuine intentions that a person in ORANGE in the same area cannot understand.

Each vMEME or color really decodes the intention behind the action, not so much which actions will be carried out. For example, as you stated, you care about others and see the potential for building deep relationships with another girl. If this is your intention, dating is GREEN. That's not the same intention as wanting to slam some pussy day-in and day-out, as you know, which is ORANGE 

At the end of the day, this is just a model. A theory. If you want to date, and you're conscious of your intentions, then date! Do what you want to do  Don't limit your life to what a book says to fit a certain mold or color.

P.S. While it's true, GREEN is more 'other'-focused, this does not mean it is anti-free speech like BLUE can be such as in leadership/follower-ship relations. As you move up the spiral, the cooler 'other'-focused colors integrate more 'self'-focused (individualism/elitism) traits, and vice versa with the warmer 'self'-focused colors integrating more 'other'-focused (collectivism) traits. It just becomes understood at a higher harmonic, because in truth, the better you can serve yourself, the better you can serve others, and vice versa. Cheers. 

[MofO]

@billiesimon

The ultimate relationship has no other.