what is the problem if we use logic, reasons and mind To "REALITY AND TRUTH"

[John Iverson]

Now, I'm reading a Philosophy book, and as I read the chapter one , I always encounter that philosophers like Aristotle believe that having a faculty of reasons and being a logical arrive you to the truth, and basically society have a blind faith to what they discuss in the school, their mind just picks up what their mind wants to pick up and now it affects how they treat others and the world.. they believe in something based on their knowledge about it and that's it, and now if someone said something that beyond logical and scientific or faculty of reasons they are just condemning you that you are illogical or you are crazy, they are always asking for evidence and asking who says that statement or claims , what if i'm the one who said it? They will listen if you are credible or you prove it with concrete evidence, but they are always a basis .. either Scientific, or Philosophical 

 

and also whatever they got on the book they will fight in one belief to another.. for example.. moral and terrorist, they used to know that killing is bad but they don't understand that in another person they don't see killings is bad, or they don't see how sneaky is our mind that controls us from what we believe from what we do and what we see, this is a problem

Edited February 26, 2018 by John Iverson

[SOUL]

Well, philosophical truth is a kind of truth unto itself since it depends on how one defines their own philosophy.

Some people's philosophy is to be factually accurate but some only seek to be consistent with their own philosophy even if it's not to be factual.

Spiritual 'truth' would be closer to the latter of those two but may not necessarily be as 'true' in logical terms so for philosopher's who seek rational consistency that type of spiritual truth may fall short of their criteria.

People undoubtedly develop a certain bias in life and often another's bias appears unfit for them so may not accept another's 'truth' and may not view it as 'credible' depending on their own bias.

The 'credibility' that is accepted on this forum is different than that on a scientific forum and different than on one for philosophy even if those latter two are more similar.

Then if we go to a religious forum what they deem credible would be vastly different than any other forum with even from different religions.

Philosophical 'truth' would seek at least to be self consistent of being true to it's own standard.

That's how I view it, it may not be acceptable to everyone's perspective, though.

Edited February 26, 2018 by SOUL

[John Iverson]

40 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Well, philosophical truth is a kind of truth unto itself since it depends on how one defines their own philosophy.

Some people's philosophy is to be factually accurate but some only seek to be consistent with their own philosophy even if it's not to be factual.

Spiritual 'truth' would be closer to the latter of those two but may not necessarily be as 'true' in logical terms so for philosopher's who seek rational consistency spiritual truth may fall short of their criteria.

People undoubtedly develop a certain bias in life and often another's bias appears unfit for them so may not accept another's 'truth' and may not view it as 'credible' depending on their own bias.

The 'credibility' that is accepted on this forum is different than that on a scientific forum and different than on one for philosophy even if those latter two are more similar.

Then if we go to a religious forum what they deem credible would be vastly different than any other forum with even from different religions.

Philosophical 'truth' would seek at least to be self consistent of being true to it's own standard.

That's how I view it, it may not be acceptable to everyone's perspective, though.

True, and because of that it is hard for me to express myself or what I want to say or if I have a claim to express, and every time I watch a news or I visit Facebook they always say things to one another, before I'm on the side that is killing is bad, rape is bad, but now? I see them as what they are, what is their choice??? They don't have a choice Right? Their mind is used to be like that so who am I to change them, the moment I give in to my emotion I become unconscious and I don't see as they are,. I see myself as an emotion or thoughts or my mind projects.

[tsuki]

"Norm" is the very same mechanism as "bias" and it is what we use to distinguish truth from false. It is a system of filters one applies to reality to "constrain" it and produce an illusion of control. Every conscious action can be viewed as a result of an (unconscious) bias, or norm.

This illusion of control breaks down when one asks the question: "What norms are normal?", or to put it another way: "Which norms are good/true?". This cyclic dependency shows that logic cannot answer this questions and any norm is as valid as any other. For example:

• Is killing bad? Killing human beings must be bad, of course, unless we're defending something precious, like national identity.
• Is imprisonment bad? You can't imprison an unwilling person, unless he broke a law, or is declared insane by an expert and is a threat to the norm.
• Is stealing bad? Of course! Unless it is something that is rightfully ours, right?

Even something as simple as self-expression can be seen as bias, as one may simply enjoy himself without presence or approval of other people.
Even something as "accepting reality as it is" is a bias, as there is no reason to do so.

Reason breaks down in real-world situations once one is willing to be honest with himself.

Edited February 26, 2018 by tsuki

[Shin]

No problem, it just won't work.

[egoless]

The thing is you should also use logic and reasoning. But only after you had experiencial awakening moments and glimpses. Then you can whether follow your intuition or fortify your understanding with logical connections. With time you will develop big picture understanding and your intuition will sky rocket...

[Ether]

@Shin You need both knowledge AND experience

 

You cant awaken without both

[Shin]

1 minute ago, Ether said:

@Shin You need both knowledge AND experience

 

You cant awaken without both

Yeah, but it's like 5 % knowledge then 95% practice.

So I prefer to say it's all practice because almost everyone had read some concepts here and there.

[Ether]

@Shin Percentage is just a concept

[Guest Quanty]

The is no problem, it is only limited to 4-10% what mind can handle. The other 90% is the intelligence of how the universe really works, you can see this when you drop the mind down the rabbit hole.

 

Namaste, mfks!

[Hsinav]

@John Iverson

The problem is that your (no offence) intellect is just a tiny, tiny, tiny fragment of the hole, with that tiny fragment you just can´t understand the hole.

[John Iverson]

7 minutes ago, Hsinav said:

@John Iverson

The problem is that your (no offence) intellect is just a tiny, tiny, tiny fragment of the hole, with that tiny fragment you just can´t understand the hole.

I admit that before here to this forum, that is why I am here, my searching and seeking to have an intelligence brought me here, ,.. I'm working my intelligence up

[John Iverson]

20 minutes ago, Quanty said:

The is no problem, it is only limited to 4-10% what mind can handle. The other 90% is the intelligence of how the universe really works, you can see this when you drop the mind down the rabbit hole.

 

Namaste, mfks!

Namaste, this makes me feel better ha-ha yes, if that takes me just keep on going to the deep of rabbit whole sure I will

[Hsinav]

4 minutes ago, John Iverson said:

I admit that before here to this forum, that is why I am here, my searching and seeking to have an intelligence brought me here, ,.. I'm working my intelligence up

That was not the point, I meant a human beings intellect is a tiny fragment of the hole, not yours personally.

[John Iverson]

1 hour ago, egoless said:

The thing is you should also use logic and reasoning. But only after you had experiencial awakening moments and glimpses. Then you can whether follow your intuition or fortify your understanding with logical connections. With time you will develop big picture understanding and your intuition will sky rocket...

Let's see  thankyou for the response

[John Iverson]

1 minute ago, Hsinav said:

That was not the point, I meant a human beings intellect is a tiny fragment of the hole, not yours personally.

Oww, sorry haha! Yes true

[Nahm]

@John Iverson When you and your friend discuss what is true, that’s philosophy. The being you and your friend actually are, is truth. 

[Joseph Maynor]

5 hours ago, Ether said:

@Shin You need both knowledge AND experience

 

You cant awaken without both

I agree.  Experience without knowledge is blind.  Knowledge without experience is lame.  You’re on the right track.  You need both.  Especially an understanding of past thought, which can give you perspective on your present thought.  If you lack that perspective, you will fall into numerous traps that are well known about.  I have particularly benefitted recently by going back and reading Indian Philosophy, so I can see what those ideas really were.  People have made up a bunch of stuff and then pretend that’s what those traditions were about — and I can see that clearly now.  You can get at facts in this work, but you gotta study.  You’ll get a nice BS detector that will help you in this work!  It will help your Enlightenment to see the source of the ideas that are so casually and often carelessly bandied about by the New Age community.  There’s a lot of BS out there!  A lot!

Some things to read about:

Upanishads, Jainism, the Charvaka School, the Six Orthodox Hindu Schools, the Buddha, Nagarjuna, Adi Shankara, Chan Buddhism, Japanese Zen Buddhism, Lao Tsu, Taoism, Confucius, Mencius, the Neo-Confucianists, Ancient Greek and Roman Philosophy, 16th Century Western Philosophy, 17th Century Western Philosophy, 18th Century Western Philosophy, 19th Century Western Philosophy, 20th Century Western Philosophy, Christianity and Christian Theology, Islam and Islamic Theology, Judaism and Jewish Theology, Carl Jung’s Psychological Theories, the American Transcendentalists, Mystical Traditions from around the world, Sufism, Sikhism, Mormonism, Neo Advaita, etc.

So, there’s a lot to learn.  This will give you perspective.  And this is just some stuff that came to mind now.  There’s so much more too.  Treat life like an education.  Not necessarily a bookish education exclusively either!  Life is not to be lived in the books!  But you do need some study so you can hold it in the road without getting too far off course.  There is nothing new under the Sun in a sense.  Smart people have devoted their entire lives to these matters, so you do wanna find out what they had to say.  There’s guidance is the world’s books!  Use it.  Improve on it!

Edited February 26, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[MarkusSweden]

@Joseph Maynor Glad to see you are back. Don't let those backstabbers make you quit your activity here. I am a fan of your journal, as you know.  

[Ether]

@MarkusSweden No one backstabbs its just fun man, dont take it personal

@Joseph Maynor hey, yeah, i love the buddha