How can God be so cruel as to create us?

[Flow With Life]

From my current position on my spiritual journey, I have come to a certain understanding of reality (through a combination of intellectual masturbation + direct experience) which might be described with the following sequence of words:

 

"The Infinite Oneness manufactured the illusion of being not-one, that is, it manufactured the illusion of being separate ego-identifications. I assume this was done so that they could be later killed so that the Oneness may once again realize its inherent oneness and so rejoice in the ecstatic union of opposites."

 

Now my question is this: How could it be so cruel as to create us only to cast us aside later for its own pleasure? Is that not cruel? Is it really worth it to create Hell/Samsara and populate it with beings who will toil and suffer for eternity, just to have Heaven/Nirvana which is exclusively reserved for itself/no one?

 

EDIT: so for clarification, I'm not asking why Man creates his own suffering, but why God chose to incarnate as suffering-Man (knowing full well what it was getting into... omniscient and all that)

Edited February 21, 2018 by Flow With Life

[Saumaya]

Nothing is wrong with it. You suffer only when you realise the false self is not you, not generally. It is more like false self has been created due to the nature of intellect and memory rather than infinite oneness.

[starsofclay]

I guess you'll have to ask yourself... let me know what it says.

Edited February 21, 2018 by starsofclay

[deci belle]

hi Flow❤︎ …I'll see where this goes~

Quote

"The Infinite Oneness manufactured the illusion of being not-one, that is, it manufactured the illusion of being separate ego-identifications. I assume this was done so that they could be later killed so that the Oneness may once again realize its inherent oneness and so rejoice in the ecstatic union of opposites."

Not bad, but let's take this a little further back to its non-originated aspect of unity, which you are referring to as "oneness".

There is no "one". By direct experience, it is possible to arrive at this extreme of limits in terms of the limitless. There is no thing.

This is the basis of discussion. There is no "they", "it", nor is there a single reason or hope of meaning. What people can experience in this vein is as far as anyone has ever gone in the psychic history of humankind. Human awareness has never "evolved" because it has never entered into the sphere of Creation.

Non-originated, as such, there is no change, no being. The quality of the unborn aware human nature is awake. Just this is Unity. There is no other.

Certainly, there is that which is beyond the ultimate, beyond the unknowable, but that which is accessible in terms of realization beyond the person, beyond selfhood, is awareness itself— and this alone is to be acknowledged as the true self, which is void of self, uncreated, as is, unified selfless intent.

Unity is awareness yet there is no thing, no image, no beginning. Awareness is empty, emptiness is itself void of voidness. That's not a cute word-game, it's a description of Reality. In other words, nothing doesn't exist either. The Absolute doesn't exist "in" a void. It's an inconceivability.

Let's move on.

Selfless unified intent is your nature— that's one's ineffable nature wondering about the ineffable. When you get to the ineffable source, there is no wonderer, so there is no wondering~ there's just selfless unified intent (it's not yours). Is that wonderful? Not yet. There is a point of illumination on the verge of going into action in perpetuity. This point, being your nature (which is not yours), has never moved. That's why illumination, the "light", is not created.

When it does move, that's creation, that's karma, that's eternity, that's the "one" you speak of. When does it move? All at once, because that's the nature of the absolute. Absolute= unified; all at once. Created= incremental; process.

The absolute and creation are not different. They are the same thing. Inasmuch as there is no thing, this is an inconceivability that one realizes as one's own nature. Therefore, people are able to enter this inconceivability to carry out enlightening activity in response to conditions without extending or relying on their own personal power.

They use the potential that is inherent in every created situational cycle, because enlightening being is unified in terms of  being the expression of the absolute essence of conditional energy comprising creational karmic evolution.

In spite of the fact that the Absolute has never moved, it's moving right now because we're all individually this point of illumination all at once. But by the activation of your non-originated intent, it is possible to return to your inconceivable source of illumination, and see it for yourself as itself. It's you, you are not it. Knowledge of the Real is precisely where you are right now whether you know it or not.

So Flow's intuitional OP into the inconceivable "logic" of reality is indicative of how close we are to seeing reality, not only in the absolute sense, but also (and more importantly) in terms of adapting the logic or "celestial mechanism" in taoist terms, to everyday ordinary situations.

The manufactured illusion of being (separate ego identifications) is not manufactured "out there". It is possible for people to see reality in the midst of everyday ordinary situations. Those who see reality do not see illusions, therefore nothing whatsoever is manufactured. It is the person who manufactures illusion.

As for projecting the manufacturer onto the non-originated basis, this is the myth of god-the-creator. Awareness is not created, so there is no such creator other than as a psychic point of reference when passing through the veil between ego-referencing consciousness and enlightening being when one realizes and accepts one's enlightening function.

Jesus said he is the light because all people are none other that just this true light of awareness. Ordinary people follow the light of creation and are therefore bound by its laws of karma. Enlightening beings "turn the light around" and follow the same light to its source by accepting their innate enlightening function beyond good, bad, self, other, right, wrong.

Please avoid the tendency to rationalize the aspect of "the light" in linear terms. It's an inconceivability, but it's natural.

The Absolute is not the mystery. The absolute is unknowable. The mystery is Creation. People can enter into its mystery as enlightening beings by seeing things as true potential and not as things to use to gratify the false self.

I have addressed the point of the OP's thesis in the first sentence. As for the OP's second sentence in the quote, that whole aspect (which Flow intuited uncannily) gets into the "take-over of creation" elucidated in taoist immortalism or spiritual alchemy. That is in itself the work of enlightening activity in the midst of everyday ordinary situations where one awaits a created cycle's innate "killing energy" to arise per the situation's timing, whereby one the steals its potential.

That's about as far as I'll  go with this for now.

 

 

ed note: add "(it's not yours)" in 7th; add "inasmuch as" in 10th; add 15th; add 16th paragraphs

Edited February 22, 2018 by deci belle

[AlwaysBeNice]

Natural state is joy, more visible in little children/animals

Negative conditioning, emotional supression, ignorance = suffering (temporary, mind based)

It may look as if it's just a poor choice to ever then go through these things and suffer.

But this grows you as a being, it gave you the unique experience of being closed, opening up and of being open while knowing what it's like to be closed. 

[Neo]

Is it possible to hypothetically create a version of separateness which is not painful, say in another universe?

How much of mankind's unhappiness is just because of his particular form and function?

Or does your original question only pertain to humans on Earth?

I'm sure in other universes there could be beings who aren't ego centred and who are born as their universes expands and die when the universe collapses dies, and won't know of anything to fear because the concept of death wouldn't exist.

[Monkey-man]

You see suffering is necessary, have you seen one film, read one story which has no conflict/suffering of the hero? There's no life without such conflict. Animals constantly fight for life, so does human-beings. Its needed for life as we know it to exist in the first place. No fear = tiger will eat you. And I think its an accumulation of information, or turning potential into actual (without ever creating something). But its not your suffering, its just negative feelings and pain, not yours! Just is. That's the whole drama - don't take it personal and follow heart. Very challenging yes I agree.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Monkey-man

[Flow With Life]

Quote

When it does move, that's creation, that's karma, that's eternity, that's the "one" you speak of.

I think I understand what you are saying here. The "non-originated aspect of unity" is un-moved, and hence is not to blame for Creation. I guess at this point of your post, that just reframes my question as, why does Creation create itself, given its inherent characteristic of suffering? Although, perhaps "suffering" is not inherent, but only an illusion which can be seen through by enlightened beings who realize their true self as the light of the "non-originated aspect of unity". Looks like I have more work to do.

Excellent post, the rational part of my brain enjoyed having its foundations loosened.

 

Some points in your post spawned additional curiosities in me:

 

Quote

It's moving right now. We're all individually this point of illumination all at once. But by the activation of your non-originated intent, it is possible to return to your inconceivable source of illumination, and see it for yourself as itself. It's you, you are not it.

"It's you, you are not it." Hmm... I don't fully grok. I get that it's me... but I am not it? My existing interpretation is that they are one and the same. Care to elaborate?

 

Quote

That is itself the work of enlightening activity in the midst of everyday ordinary situations where one awaits a created cycle's innate "killing energy" to arise per the situation whereby one the steals its potential.

I am curious about this so-called "stealing of the potential" of the "killing energy" in "everyday ordinary situations". I assume by "killing energy" you mean something like "that universal force which destroys form, in contrast to the opposite force which creates"? How do I go about learning more about such techniques?

Edited February 21, 2018 by Flow With Life

[Flow With Life]

1 hour ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

It may look as if it's just a poor choice to ever then go through these things and suffer.

But this grows you as a being, it gave you the unique experience of being closed, opening up and of being open while knowing what it's like to be closed. 

I think I grok. It's great to look back at how much I've grown. Strangely, it is also sad in a way (for me), to look back at who I left behind. It kinda feels like I murdered past-me, and replaced him. I think I get the "death of the old to make room for the new" idea and how it's necessary, but at the same time sad. Maybe that's just residue of my old-ego still clinging on...

Edited February 21, 2018 by Flow With Life

[Shin]

God will be as cruel as you are to yourself, for you are one of the same

[Flow With Life]

46 minutes ago, Neo said:

Is it possible to hypothetically create a version of separateness which is not painful, say in another universe?

How much of mankind's unhappiness is just because of his particular form and function?

As a symbol-manufacturing engine, my brain can hypothetically create all manner of illusions me-thinks. But I am interested not in why man creates his own suffering (as far as I know, this is done in pure ignorance), but why God does it to itself (for God is the complete lack of ignorance).

[Flow With Life]

30 minutes ago, Monkey-man said:

But its not your suffering, its just negative feelings and pain, not yours! Just is. That's the whole drama - don't take it personal and follow heart. Very challenging yes I agree.

Yeah, I guess I'm just taking this whole thing personally. Kinda like: "Why did God forsake me!" Guess I need to work on my "impartial witness"-game.

[Flow With Life]

3 minutes ago, Shin said:

God will be as cruel as you are to yourself, for you are one of the same

But that just reinforces my OP's position of God as being cruel

[Shin]

5 minutes ago, Flow With Life said:

But that just reinforces my OP's position of God as being cruel

It isn't, and it is too.

And neither.

It's totally impersonal, yet loving inconditionally itself.

You'll never get it with your mind, it's just paradoxes into more paradoxes, and it never stops.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Shin

[Flow With Life]

21 minutes ago, Shin said:

You'll never get it with your mind, it's just paradoxes into more paradoxes, and it never stops.

Well that's a bummer for my mind  Should I try anyway until my mind gives up, or not even bother with it as a tool?

[Shin]

3 minutes ago, Flow With Life said:

Well that's a bummer for my mind  Should I try anyway until my mind gives up, or not even bother with it as a tool?

Once you've realize concepts about the truth are only pointers, you'll stop on your own.

Then the real struggle will start, or not, it doesn't has to be this way for everyone (I hope for you).

[Nahm]

6 hours ago, Flow With Life said:

Very interesting post!

From my current position on my spiritual journey, I have come to a certain understanding of reality (through a combination of intellectual masturbation + direct experience) which might be described with the following sequence of words:

"The Infinite Oneness manufactured the illusion of being not-one, that is, it manufactured the illusion of being separate ego-identifications. I assume this was done so that they could be later killed so that the Oneness may once again realize its inherent oneness and so rejoice in the ecstatic union of opposites."

“Manufactured” implies past. It’s happening now.    If you are embodying awareness of the illusion, how do you see “killed”?    There’s not two, so there’s no “rejoice union” event. Maya appears this way. 

Now my question is this: How could it be so cruel as to create us only to cast us aside later for its own pleasure? Is that not cruel? Is it really worth it to create Hell/Samsara and populate it with beings who will toil and suffer for eternity, just to have Heaven/Nirvana which is exclusively reserved for itself/no one?

You have experienced this “hell”? 

You’re in heaven. You never left. 

 

EDIT: so for clarification, I'm not asking why Man creates his own suffering, but why God chose to incarnate as suffering-Man (knowing full well what it was getting into... omniscient and all that)

If love has an illusion of other, it will not be an illusion of love. Nothing is love. 

Why would you ever watch a scary movie? Because it’s just a movie. With more direct experience, it’s revealed, this is just a movie. A lame, old joke comes to mind.....

 

Wanna see my impression of love? 

 

[Saumaya]

2 hours ago, Flow With Life said:

But that just reinforces my OP's position of God as being cruel

Saying that God is cruel is your own projection

[egoless]

Otherwise it all would be so boring don’t you agree?  

[Shin]

4 minutes ago, egoless said:

Otherwise it all would be so boring don’t you agree?  

Fuck you god !