The mary and jane metaphor suggest solipsism?

[Leo Gura]

17 hours ago, Edvard said:

But why do you lie?;) You say that you are in my dream, but given that every human being in my dream behaves as if they have their own perspective, you're lying! Cuz then you're not in my dream; I am in «your» dream. There's no one but you, yet you're saying you're in my dream... well... it's true that I behave as if I have my own perspective in your dream, so you wanna tell it to me even if I am illusory, because that's how you choose to relate to an illusion which behaves like it's real and has a perspective, or a «separate consciousess». Too bad it's the other way around... wanna fight over that? You could say you're «me», but not really. More accurate to say that you're behaving like «me» in a different life, and in that sense you're kind of a reflection. Just talking about ideas here, of course...

You and me are identical. You just aren't conscious of that yet.

[Shin]

2 minutes ago, Outer said:

@Leo Gura  So I'm talking to you within the dream, as dream content and you're talking to me within the dream as dream content. So we're both dream content? But I'm conscious - you're dream content.

If you tell me you're conscious and I'm dream content, as well, then I think we're the same person.

It's only now that you get that ?

Are you fucking serious ?

[Shin]

Just now, Outer said:

@Shin Dude, lol. It's still kind of hard to get. If you say you're conscious and the other is dream content, and I do as well - we're the same dude. But I don't understand how there isn't "your" thoughts, emotions, vision, hearing, etc.

Alan Watts explained it as "you're only experiencing one at a time" but I don't get it...

It means exactly what he said.

There would be no experiences if you were omniscient.

[Shin]

3 minutes ago, Outer said:

But if I say "I'm experiencing this one experience: Outer", and you say "I'm experiencing this one experience: Shin"

How can the one experience be Outer, if there is the one experience Shin?

 

Read this (explanation/philosophy part)

https://www.trinfinityacademy.com/courses/enlightenment-1-part-1-introduction-course/lesson-3-everything-has-presence/#ExplanationPhilosophy

Edited February 23, 2018 by Shin

[Shin]

1 minute ago, Outer said:

Now you're triggering me Shin.

That's the point

[Shin]

16 minutes ago, Outer said:

But if I say "I'm experiencing this one experience: Outer", and you say "I'm experiencing this one experience: Shin"

How can the one experience be Outer, if there is the one experience Shin?

 

@Outer I am Bentinho ... 

Can't you see ... oh no you can't 

 

If you were experiencing both you and me at the same time, how would you experience the conversation ?

Assuming that's possible, why would you even do it ?

You would already know everything from both mind.

It would be pointless.

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Shin

[Leo Gura]

@Outer  You're getting lost in perception.

Reality is an infinite singularity. It is ONE object. On the surface of this "mega-object" are sculpted an infinite number of surfaces. One of those surfaces is your present experience. This object contains every experience ever possible simulateously. There is no consciousness. There is only this object. You are it. But right now you only identify with being a tiny part of the whole.

Imagine a giant fur ball, where each hair is a creature such as yourself. This ball contians all creatures and non-creatures alike because it is infinitely hairy.

It looks precise as your present experience shows. You are presently being one of those hairs. But you are also the entire ball because the ball is made of nothing but hairs.

[John Iverson]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You and me are identical. You just aren't conscious of that yet.

In what aspect or something that you and me are identical?? 

[Girzo]

@John Iverson this line of reasoning has helped me in the begining to grasp this "you and me are identical" stuff:

Sit in silence and try to locate yourself, you will be trying and consequently finding nothing to finally figure out, if you are diligent enough, that you are this Nothing. You will also come to conclusion that other people are Nothing too, therefore you are all the same, because if there was at least one diffrence between you and them, you wouldn't have been Nothing.

[Joseph Maynor]

Dude.  All you gotta do is let go.  Just let go.  Reality is doing what is was doing.  Your beliefs about reality do not affect reality.  Stop trying to control, know, or do.  Watch reality continue on unperturbed.  Just rest as awareness.  Watch reality and be reality.  There is no controlling agent.  That's a belief taken to be true.  Just realize you are all of it and that you are not changing.  What is changing is Maya.  Can you see it?  Not believe it, but be it?

Edited February 23, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, John Iverson said:

In what aspect or something that you and me are identical?? 

You are Absolute Infinity, and I am Absolute Infinity. Ta-da!

This cannot be understood logically. You must have an enlightenment experience into what is reality, what are you, and what is another. Those are like 3 separate enlightenment insights which then come together into one total enlightenment.

[tsuki]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This cannot be understood logically. You must have an enlightenment experience into what is reality, what are you, and what is another. Those are like 3 separate enlightenment insights which then come together into one total enlightenment.

Is the order of these experiences important in your understanding? Or you simply experienced them in this order?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, tsuki said:

Is the order of these experiences important in your understanding? Or you simply experienced them in this order?

There is no guaranteed order. And they will not necessarily be 3 discrete experiences. You could see it all in one giant revelation, or you might have to catch tiny glimpses here and there, over and over again before it finally all comes together.

I've had it happen both ways. I've seen them individually and seen them all collectively, and then SO DEEPLY all collectively that I know they are all identical.

Again, this will make little sense until you have these awakenings for yourself. You will NOT figure this out rationally no matter how hard you try. Trying to "figure out" enlightenment was one of my biggest traps. It cannot be done. You will waste years doing it and ultimately fail. Which is why I like psychedelics. They will show you very quickly why you cannot "figure it out". These insights exist at higher planes of consciousness than the plane you're at right now. No amount of mental activity in your current plane will do the trick. You must jump up in planes. Which thinking cannot achieve.

[tsuki]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no guaranteed order. And they will not necessarily be 3 discrete experiences. You could see it all in one giant revelation, or you might have to catch tiny glimpses here and there, over and over again before it finally all comes together.

I've had it happen both ways. I've seen them individually and seen them all collectively, and then SO DEEPLY all collectively that I know they are all identical.

This is what happened to me as well. Fist was the self, then there was the other, and then they started to merge which was a hit in itself. Once they merged over a few months, it hit me again.
Thanks!

[Forestluv]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Outer  You're getting lost in perception.

Reality is an infinite singularity. It is ONE object. On the surface of this "mega-object" are sculpted an infinite number of surfaces. One of those surfaces is your present experience. This object contains every experience ever possible simulateously. There is no consciousness. There is only this object. You are it. But right now you only identify with being a tiny part of the whole.

Imagine a giant fur ball, where each hair is a creature such as yourself. This ball contians all creatures and non-creatures alike because it is infinitely hairy.

It looks precise as your present experience shows. You are presently being one of those hairs. But you are also the entire ball because the ball is made of nothing but hairs.

For me, your blog post about the giant chameleon is a more effective analogy. 

[Forestluv]

Below is an analogy that settled my mind on this life dream thing.

Imagine Sarah is asleep dreaming. Lets call her dream character she identifies with as Nancy. Nancy is in New York City and there are lots of other characters - the taxi driver, her friend from college, people in a cafe etc. Nancy's subjective experience is that she is a separate self from all the other characters. Yet, everything in the dream including the landscapes and all characters are all one within a higher consciousness (Sarah's mind). However, Nancy is locked into her character and is unaware a higher consciousness exists. Even if Nancy starts searching in New York for awakening and enlightenment - it won't come - because she is still the Nancy character. Nancy will not be able to "figure it out" as Nancy.  The awakening comes with the awareness of Nancy's character. The higher consciousness (Sarah's mind) could become aware that she is dreaming and it's all just one dream. Then the identification with the Nancy self dissolves.

Similarly, there is a type of "higher" or "other" form of consciousness that cannot be awakened to as my life character that I identify with. I spent over 20 yrs practicing meditation, going to retreats, reading personal development and spiritual books - and I did it all as my dream life character, as "Nancy". Just like Nancy can't figure out how to awaken, neither can my dream life character. It comes from the higher one consciousness (e.g. the higher Sarah consciousness) that becomes aware of itself.

This higher "Sarah" consciousness is beyond my understanding. It's really hard to for my self character to acknowledge. It can also be frightening. Consider it from Nancy's perspective. Imagine Nancy catches a few glimpses that there is a higher consciousness and she is a character within a dream. That her character is an illusion. It could cause anxiety, panic and terror in Nancy. She would likely struggle to protect her story and identity.

For me, higher doses of psychedelics end the story and self identity of the dream character. I learned more in four hours of my first trip than 20 yrs of meditation and spiritual readings. Imagine the dream character Nancy dissolves and what remains is the higher consciousness. That moment would have more impact than all the activities Nancy did her entire life as the Nancy dream character.

Other people have awakenings others ways. Yet for me, psychedelics was the ONLY tool that exposed and dissolved the Nancy dream character. As a novice, the experiences were terrifying and insane. On two occasions, I had desire to kill myself as that would be the only way to regain control and make it stop. Yet over time the self identity attachment has lessened and things just are. Just one big constantly IS. "Sarah" is just "IS" and my self identity is a character within that one giant "IS".

[MarkusSweden]

@Serotoninluv Thank you! well written and highly interesting! 

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by MarkusSweden

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Outer said:

Why finitude?

Infinity must include all finitudes!

Infinity cannot exclude anything, which paradoxically means it must even include all possible exclusions!

That is the ULTIMATE realization.

The Absolute and the relative are identical. Everything is Nothing and Nothing is Everything.

Mu

[MarkusSweden]

@Leo Gura The whole point of this thread was to shred some light on one aspect that I think you and Rupert Spira don't give a fair amount of attention to..

In your Dream episode two weeks ago(which I loved) as well as in all the Spira episodes when he talks about the waking state dream and compare it to conventional dreams at night.

Both of you don't highlight enough that the waking state dream is a SHARED dream, whereas the conventional dreams at night are private and happens only to ONE mind, not to several billion minds as this waking state dream. 

I can't understand why we don't talk more about this fact.

For example, lets say you do some "important" science for the world and humanity in this waking state dream, and then you wake up, laughing that it was just a dream. All of your "important" science had no importance what so ever, except the enjoying part of doing it, since enjoying experiences are always valuable, but your science had no importance as such, since it was just a dream.

However, that's only true from your perspective since you're awake from this waking state dream. But seven billion other minds are still dreaming the waking state dream, and to them your science might have a HUGE impact and importance. 

Whereas in a dream at night, if you do science, it had no importance what so ever after you wake up, since you were the only one having that particular dream. 

I'm almost prepared to argue that the waking state dream can be reclaimed as REAL reality again due to the fact that it's a SHARED dream, with so many minds involved in it. 

You see what I'm saying here Leo? 

Edited February 24, 2018 by MarkusSweden

[Saumaya]

@MarkusSweden There is no guarantee that it is a shared dream. You can only assume it is so.