How Do I Know All Of This Is Real?

[Vercingetorix]

@drelamore well but you don't need faith for science, it just works (Physics, chemistry...)
maybe its because I have a degree in Physics but I think what it can describe (so called objective reality)  it describe accurately. I remember Osho for example agreeing with this.

@Grasshopper well yeah it's the subjective world, science can't say anything about it!

[drelamore]

@Vercingetorix You said the magic word: "Describe"

So i ask you now...is the map the location itself?

 

[Vercingetorix]

@drelamore you mean if science is reality? no. but what's your point?

[drelamore]

@Vercingetorix That's the point of our discussion here. Why and how do you expect science to describe enlightenment? and most importantly why?

[Vercingetorix]

@drelamore well I am well aware that enlightenment is a subjective phenomena and science deals with objective phenomena. Still there are  stories of extraordinary things happening around enlightened people, maybe someone here exprienced such things. scientific for me means objectively true - such knowledge that doesn't rely on others, only on your self to know it is true. Such knowledge can motivate in my spiritual path, which right now I believe is true but can't know for sure until I experience something to validate it.

[drelamore]

@Vercingetorix

5 minutes ago, Vercingetorix said:

scientific for me means objectively true

Have you experienced it? how do you know it's true? i'll tell you: You tell yourself it's true because they explained it with proof. But how do you know the proof is true too?

That's basically enlightenment work and if you do it constantly you'll see that there is no basis for ANYTHING you claim is true! Then after this fog dissapears you will begin to see reality again and have insights

[Vercingetorix]

@drelamore I can repeat the experiment  and get the same results, otherwise its not considered a law. That's the idea of science: everything this is proven you can repeat @ your home/lab and get the same results. do you think science is a conspiracy? than how come be can build planes, go to the moon, have laser surgeries...
 

[drelamore]

@Vercingetorix Conspiracy would be just another belief, so no, i don't waste my time with that :-)

What i am trying to communicate to you is that you are looking at the world (and yourself) like you are looking at a map. Yes, the map tells you that if you go at a certain direction you are gonna reach your destination. But you've never seen those roads yourself! That means that the moment you are looking on the map and not on the road, the road is not real! You have just the idea of a road, but you don't experience it. Do you realize that because it is in your head, it doesn't mean necessarily that it's real?

[Vercingetorix]

@drelamore yeah I can see that! isn't it true also for the spiritual map? and I've made experiments in the lab the confirm physical law, so I can attest  that those part of the map are true.
 

[drelamore]

@Vercingetorix It doesn't matter what you tested, the moment you turn your head from the experiment it's not real

It's no use talking about it, sit down and do some enlightenment work.

[jjer94]

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well OK but that is the point, do you talk from experience or that just what you have been told and you believe it? cause if's its not from experience why should I believe you and not thousands of others who tell me thousands of other fantastic stories?

This is a fantastic point you made, because I can flip it around. When you talk about objective proof for something from scientists, are you talking from experience or is it just what you have been told and you believe it? When you talk about existing as a separate self, are you talking from experience or is it just what you have been told by society and you believe it? 

How can you trust anything I say, anything ANYONE says, if you can't actually confirm that they are speaking from their own experience?  Sure, I can say that I'm speaking from my own experience, but you're not the one inhabiting this body or this perspective. How can you know?

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All so called knowledge? like science? in what way? because the way we are communication right now for example is through physical laws that were implemented.

And this is what I mean by no belief is true. All scientific theories and interpretations are just that: theories and interpretations. There can never be any sort of objective certainty with any of them. They are only maps that allow us to manipulate reality as we see fit, and most of the time they work. That's how I'm able to communicate with you here online. But just because we know how to manipulate reality doesn't mean we know anything about the substance of reality, what it's made of. Science gets into a lot of trouble this way because they completely leave out the subjective first person, which is the aperture through which they make their so-called objective claims.

Let's say you're in a dream, and you're a computer technician. You're telling me how the computer works by opening up the back and showing me all of its components: motherboard, CPU, etc... You tell me that electrons flow through each of these components sending electrical signals, which allow the computer to run. While on a conceptual level, this all makes sense, on the level of reality, it doesn't. What are those electrons actually? They are consciousness. The whole computer is consciousness, but you're taking it to be a solid entity external to you. Without your observing of the computer in the dream, it would cease to exist. Sure, this particular dream may be orderly enough to say that there are certain laws that describe how things work. But they're never set in stone, because it's a freaking dream. They are only descriptions, not explanations.

What if the life you're living right now is exactly like this analogy? 

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How do I practically empty my cup? I will try to contemplate everything I believe is true. but i'm sure how to do that and how to get to the conclusion its false.

If you're into writing, I suggest trying out Spiritual Autolysis. I wrote a guide a while back that you can check out here:

 

 

[Vercingetorix]

@drelamore well I set and sit down a lot, lack of practice isn't my problem. But I agree there no more much to discuss.

@jjer94 well in the way you describe things nothing is true, only the present moment.
So if do Spiritual Autolisis that would be my conclusion, how do I benefit from this?

[jjer94]

10 minutes ago, Vercingetorix said:

So if do Spiritual Autolisis that would be my conclusion, how do I benefit from this?

There is no "I" or ego to benefit from this. You'll have to give that up. The result is that you will have freed up a lot of space to do whatever the heck you feel moved to do. No more rules on how things should be, no more resistance to what is (or a lot less), just pure authenticity. It's important to come to the conclusion that no belief is true on your own instead of believing me, because otherwise that's just another belief.

What you may not realize yet is that you live your life unconsciously to your own secret rulebook, your own sets of should's. And even if you've read up on enlightenment and no-self and ego, that rulebook will still be intact. It is your job to dismantle your own rulebook. That is essentially the pathless path to enlightenment: deconstruction of your beliefs, your should's, your resistances, your fear.