How Do I Know All Of This Is Real?

[Vercingetorix]

Enlightenment, higher states of consciousness - at all seems and feels true. 
But shouldn't there be some objective proofs supporting it? if so what are they?

Another question - why such things should exist, can it be explained scientifically, via evolution? Or in order to explain it I must suppose there is consciousness in the universe that wishes to evolve?

Why I'm asking I guess I'm asking because sometimes I lose faith. In the past 10 years I spent 100+ of hours practicing meditation, but I could never achieve a state of "no mind". (Sure I could just do it wrong, ).

I also practiced, and continue to practice, a lot of mindfulness, like I can watch myself for long periods of times, I mostly try to be conscious when I feel bad / Suffer but I feel that I only perpetuate the suffering this way, like I keep energizing the negative thoughts this way even though I "watch" them. I guess that means I continue to identify with my thoughts / emotions while still being aware of them?

[drelamore]

• What kind of proof are you waiting for?
• You don't suppose anything, that's the nature of enlightenment work
• It's gonna take you really long time to achieve an enlightenment experience only through mediation. Watch Leo's videos on enlightenment for some methods to begin with.

[Neo]

Personally, I believe that *some* aspects of this takes a leap of faith.

[Vercingetorix]

@drelamore

What kind of proof are you waiting for?

Best is objective scientific proofs, but if it's not possible than subjective experiences that people can share and attest are different than just dreaming and imagination 

You don't suppose anything, that's the nature of enlightenment work

aren't you suppose there is true to discover? if not why bother meditate / do enlightenment work 

It's gonna take you really long time to achieve an enlightenment experience only through mediation. Watch Leo's videos on enlightenment for some methods to begin with.
are you speaking from experience? what worked for you? The methods are in the 3 part enlightenment series? My main focus is practicing mindfulness.

@Neo only some?

[drelamore]

@Vercingetorix

• Why do you believe that?
• Maybe to start this process, but while doing this work you discover what is false, not thinking where that will lead
• This video is a good to begin with. Listen to it carefully and you'll understand why i'm saying what i'm saying

[Neo]

13 minutes ago, Vercingetorix said:

@Neo only some?

If you can't even establish a causal link between meditating and reaching any given *enlightenment like* state or a hypothesis on how that can happen, then how could you ever begin to prove it? The experts themselves like Tony Parsons say you cannot actually bring about enlightenment by any means.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Neo

[Ludwig]

What is your question behind this work @Vercingetorix? Why are you meditating? You want to be enlightened? Why do you want to be enlightened? Get clear with that for yourself. Otherwise it's just a nice hobby to do once in a while. 

Do you see what your mind is doing here? "I meditated for so long, i earn at least a glimps of enlightenment". You can only practice from where you are right here and now. Everything else is just a story in your mind that never existed. 

Don't waste time learning about the molecular structure of the banana, how to scientifically peal it etc. Just take a bite and you know everything you need to know. What is the question under your feet that drives you?

 

[Azrael]

51 minutes ago, Vercingetorix said:

Another question - why such things should exist, can it be explained scientifically, via evolution? Or in order to explain it I must suppose there is consciousness in the universe that wishes to evolve?

Consciousness probably can't wish to evolve, for that there actually has to be different consciousness' competing, having a free will which seems not to be the case. It's more of one big inter-mingle of a lot of arising and dying forms - that we then cut into pieces and call objects and behaviors.

The big problem with scientific proofs or explanations is this. Me as an computer scientist I proof every day that algorithms do what they should do, math theorems are correct and can be used etc. etc. But for this to happen there has to be a definition of what you want to proof, explain in beforehand.

In math, logic, computer science we create such definitions and even in biology and other disciplines they're doing that. From that definitions they imply new concepts and views and then try to proof or explain them.

Look at it for a second this way: Actually, there are no horses in this world. Horses are just another part of the big inter-mingle, just as me, you everybody else in this forum and everything that exists. It just seems to be the case that what we call horses is a form that is so constant - even though it's not at all if you look with another perspective at it - that it seems to make sense to give it a name and behaviors connected to it. So this way we can study, compare and explain it.

Every other field in science just does it the same exact way. So, this is great for science because with that model you can make some good predictions and get people on the moon. But as this is just a model, not what is actually is in front of your eyes, science can never be able to make assumptions about what is real. Philosophy neither. It can always just give you an idea.

To really get to know what is real you have to let go of all your ideas and then see what's left. Cheers to you, my friend

[jjer94]

Quote

But shouldn't there be some objective proofs supporting it? if so what are they?

Instead of asking whether anything can be objectively proven, you may first want to ask whether there is such thing as objective proof. What makes a proof objective, and where does it come from?

This may help: when we talk about enlightenment, we're talking about Absolute Truth. We're talking about something that transcends time, space, and this universe. We're talking about what you are before you were born, what you are right now, and what you are after this body dissolves. How can something that is totally Infinite be encapsulated into a finite, logical objective proof?

Quote

 why such things should exist, can it be explained scientifically, via evolution? Or in order to explain it I must suppose there is consciousness in the universe that wishes to evolve?

Evolution is just a theory. Theories are never 100% certain. Forget about evolution if you're pursuing enlightenment. You're also presupposing that consciousness exists within a universe full of atoms and molecules and space. But what if it were the other way around? What if the universe existed within consciousness? As crazy as that sounds, that may just be the case...you don't even need to believe it or have scientific proof for it either. Just look in your direct experience. But that link should help you dispel your ideas about an external universe.

To me, it sounds like you're trying to pour yourself a cup a tea when there's already plenty of tea in there. Meditation and mindfulness are great and all, but you have yet to empty your cup. Enlightenment is not something you gain, it just reveals itself when you've removed all of your ideas about how you and reality work. It doesn't come about through progress in a practice; it comes about through seeing through your own illusions. Empty your cup of beliefs is my suggestion. Contemplate anything you think is true, and see if you can figure out why it's false. A newsflash for you: all so-called knowledge is actually belief, and no belief is true. Don't take my word for it; confirm it for yourself.

Cheers!

Edited March 1, 2016 by jjer94

[Vercingetorix]

@drelamore tnx, haven't watched this one yet.
If no told you, would you assume sitting down and meditation is the way to see the truth? (or uncover the lies?)

@Neo not sure I understand

@Ludwig I know this pitfall! I really am not expecting anything. But if there no "results" there is no point to continue. My guess Is I am doing it wrong. And by no means I am saying i'm meditating for a long time. just that I started a long time ago.

@jjer94 well OK but that is the point, do you talk from experience or that just what you have been told and you believe it? cause if's its not from experience why should I believe you and not thousands of others who tell me thousands of other fantastic stories?
And take note that that I kind of believe in all of this, I just see a flaw in my believe, and with my experience with it, can't say I saw any subjective proof either.
Objective proof - in the objective, scientific world its easy to define and measure this.
I will read the link, thanks.
How do I practically empty my cup? I will try to contemplate everything I believe is true. but i'm sure how to do that and how to get to the conclusion its false.
All so called knowledge? like science? in what way? because the way we are communication right now for example is through physical laws that were implemented. Liked your touch of Jed Mckenna

[drelamore]

@Vercingetorix If it wasn't for Leo, i would be still 55 pounds heavier, still mad angry at my first girlfriend, still judging everything around me, still CRAZY monkey chatter in my mind because i would not meditate and still believing that i am an entity 

[Elton]

I'm beginning to realise that everything we do in Life is an escape from what is... And maybe if I somehow escape the escape I might be satisfied.. I just don't understand how I can't see what enlightened people see...( notice how many times I use I)  

[drelamore]

@Elton You have made many wrong assumptions, which are supported by other false assumptions, which are supported by other...

You see where this is going? 

First you need to be radically open-minded about thinks you say they are true and secondly locate them one by one and see that you are wrong.

[Elton]

@drelamoreWho decides what is right and wrong?  

Edited March 1, 2016 by Elton

[drelamore]

@EltonThose words are concepts, there is no such think as right or wrong

[Elton]

@drelamore i know bro but i just cannot understand this i cannot see it

[drelamore]

@Elton Do you watch Leo's videos? watch this and see the Enlightenment series (part 1,2 and 3 for a recap and a guided meditation)

 

 

[Vercingetorix]

let me rephrase my question: have you had any experiences that transcend "scientific knowledge" or are you are just assuming/using your intuition or whatever like me to assume their is truth in all this? and if you say there is nothing to assume, just see the truth, well I try and ask this question to get motivated.

 

@drelamore all you say is great, but can also be explained scientifically I think.

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by Vercingetorix

[drelamore]

@VercingetorixAt this moment, surely not, i can't know what future holds.

No offense, but if you open your mind more, you are going to realize that you hold too much faith in science

Edited March 1, 2016 by drelamore

[Grasshopper]

@Vercingetorix Good questions. Try flipping that logic onto yourself. There's no objective or scientific proof for freewill, that you are the thinker of your thoughts, or that any of the models of reality in your head (such as your idea of what you are) are true. Ponder that.