free will

[Patang]

the inevitability nature of reality, is widely accepted by the vast majority of the human society, when they believe in fate, feeling it in their guts, saying that it is written in the stars, and so on.... and hence, free will is merely an illusion, here in the dream state. free will is actually a resistance to the inevitability nature of reality, and therefore will always leads to discontent and suffer, which are illusions themselves, produced and promoted by the deceptive ego, which in turn, is an illusion by itself.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Patang

[Nahm]

@Patang Free will might be the pinnacle of the illusion, “the best of”. Watcha think?  It’s pretty awesome how my finger just looks like a finger. I mean, it  soooo looks like a finger. Lmao. 

[MarkusSweden]

19 minutes ago, Patang said:

the inevitability nature of reality, is widely accepted by the vast majority of the human society, when they believe in fate, feeling it in their guts, saying that it is written in the stars, and so on.... and hence, free will is merely an illusion, here in the dream state. free will is actually a resistance to the inevitability nature of reality, and therefore will always leads to discontent and suffer, which are illusions themselves, produced and promoted by the deceptive ego, which in turn, is an illusion by itself.

Why link free will to ego? 

"will" is something that somehow arise in reality. If that "will" unfolds without resistance, we call it "free will" 

Simple as that! 

No need to add an agent to execute that free will

[tsuki]

Have you ever noticed that when flailing your hand around, you don't think about moving your muscles?
Any conscious act that somebody may call free will is based in unconsciousness. 

[Patang]

@Nahm you see, every illusionary story must be consistent in order to be credible and acceptable.

@MarkusSweden the ego/mind is the one who manifests the illusion of free will.

14 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Any conscious act that somebody may call free will is based in unconsciousness. 

unconsciousness is merely a concept of the mind, which in turn, is a concept by itself.

[tsuki]

3 minutes ago, Patang said:

unconsciousness is merely a concept of the mind, which in turn, is a concept by itself.

@Patang Well, we can't really have a conversation if we are going to call concepts out for what they are

[Nahm]

@Patang initially, of course. 

[Truth]

@Patang 

[SOUL]

It depends on what you mean by "illusion".

[Joseph Maynor]

How do you explain the illusion of free will?  That's what fascinates me.  There is a definite illusion of feeling and thought that seems to suggest the free will conclusion.  

No free will resonates more with me than free will does.  Free will seems more problematic.  It's not that I need to prove no free will -- I can be doubtful of the free will paradigm.  So, I am more agnostic about these issues pursuant to my attitude of skepticism and not knowing, but I lean more towards no free will. 

I'm inclined to think that Awareness or the Soul or Atman isn't the Ego and the free will concept kinda makes no sense without Ego.  But I remain open to new evidence or possibilities.  I prefer not to cling tightly to any paradigms, including the so called Enlightenment variants.  All beliefs miss the bus of what reality is.  Reality is only in the moment.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Truth]

14 minutes ago, SOUL said:

It depends on what you mean by "illusion".

So are you saying there could be an Illusion within illusion?

[SOUL]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

How do you explain the illusion of free will.  That's what fascinates me.  There is a definite illusion of feeling and thought that seems to suggest the free will conclusion.  

It really comes down to what is meant by "free" and "illusion", I think that is what creates the confusion.

[SOUL]

@Truth Yep

[Joseph Maynor]

35 minutes ago, SOUL said:

It really comes down to what is meant by "free" and "illusion", I think that is what creates the confusion.

The longer I'm on the path the more it is pretty clear to be that there is no free will, but I could be wrong, as that's a belief too.  Of course it's possible I'm just being brainwashed with all the Enlightenment theories too.  There's truth and then there's theory -- and never the twain shall meet.  All beliefs are theory and are suspect on that basis -- even the non-dual theories.  Not knowing is more powerful than non-duality.  Truth is more powerful than non-duality.  And truth is simply reality.  Reality doesn't need a belief.  Does reality care about free will or no free will?  Probably not.  It's apples and oranges, and reality doesn't consider either one food haha.  I'm enjoying playing this new role of the non-committed believer.  Yeah!  It's a role.  Does that mean there is something wrong with it, something ideological?  Is reality ideological, dogmatic, something in between, something heterogeneous -- an incalculable chaos perhaps?  Reality yawns at all this, and moves on stoically unperturbed.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[SOUL]

16 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

The longer I'm on the path the more it is pretty clear to be that there is no free will, but I could be wrong, as that's a belief too.  Of course it's possible I'm just being brainwashed with all the Enlightenment theories too.  There's truth and then there's theory -- and never the twain shall meet.  All beliefs are theory and are suspect on that basis -- even the non-dual theories.  Not knowing is more powerful than non-duality.  Truth is more powerful than non-duality.  And truth is simply reality.  Reality doesn't need a belief.  Does reality care about free will or no free will?  Probably not.  It's apples and oranges, and reality doesn't consider either food.  I'm enjoying playing this new role of the non-committed believer.  Yeah!  It's a role.  Does that mean there is something wrong with it, something ideological?  Is reality ideological, dogmatic, something in between, something heterogeneous -- an incalculable chaos perhaps?  Reality yawns at all this, and moves on stoically unperturbed.

Baha, are you ok man? Take two deep breaths and just be....hehehe

[Nahm]

36 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I'm inclined to think that Awareness or the Soul or Atman isn't the Ego and the free will concept kinda makes no sense without Ego

? 

Free will / no free will, is one of the last dualities. Nothing more than an exercise to open the mind. Same as alive / dead, self / no self. 

Think about it for a minute....what did you think nondualty pointed to? What does self-actualize mean to you? 

“Do you think that’s air, you’re breathing?”

❤️

[SOUL]

52 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Free will / no free will, is one of the last dualities

There really is no duality, only a mistaken perception of it by the mind......hehe.

[Joseph Maynor]

5 minutes ago, SOUL said:

There really is no duality, only a mistaken perception of it by the mind......hehe.

Totally!  We think our ideas correspond to reality.  We think reality closely corresponds to our thoughts about it.

This is a deep prejudice we seem to be hardwired with.  An inclination to err by assuming this metaphor is real.  Not even seeing the underlying metaphor.  

[Saumaya]

As far as the debate of free will vs determinism go...I'd say both are incorrect as two truths cannot exist. The world is getting created and destroyed at the same time. You don't have control...thats right..but to say that future is determined will also be wrong.

[Joseph Maynor]

32 minutes ago, Saumaya said:

As far as the debate of free will vs determinism go...I'd say both are incorrect as two truths cannot exist. The world is getting created and destroyed at the same time. You don't have control...thats right..but to say that future is determined will also be wrong.

Every belief and role feels like a straight-jacket to reality that reality simply sloughs off after about 2 seconds.  That's the trouble with beliefs, they purport to be independent of time and place -- or context-independent.  But reality and truth are totally context-dependent.  That's why beliefs have to be clung to loosely.  Beliefs are an attempt to control reality in a sense.  An attempt to define reality.  An attempt to reduce the dynamic to the static, the changing to the changeless.  You are that which is not definable.  I think this is the first sentence of the Tao Te Ching.  Lao Tsu knew this, which is pretty amazing.  And we're still puzzled about it today.  I guess there's some knowledge that doesn't accumulate with time.  Why is that?  That's a fascinating question, isn't it?  Some knowledge seems to catch and some doesn't.  

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Joseph Maynor