How Do You Know the Ontological Status of Reality is a Dream

[Joseph Maynor]

As you allege?

Am I just supposed to take your word for it?  

That's a big claim.  A belief to boot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor

A lot of people don't even know what Ontology is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[snowleopard]

Which 'you' is being addressed?

[Joseph Maynor]

15 minutes ago, snowleopard said:

Which 'you' is being addressed?

You can run but ya can't hide.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Patang]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Am I just supposed to take your word for it? 

no, everything you read, see or hear, they are just stories, do not believe anything, do not believe others and not even yourself for that matter. all of these stories are merely a road map, you need to check them out for yourself by those that resonate with you. you are the only one who can discover the truth for your self for what as it is. "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" (sherlock holmes).

Edited February 12, 2018 by Patang

[snowleopard]

The 'dream' allegory is another pointer that perhaps loosens the grip on the materialist paradigm, and the fixated self-identification, to see that the consensus construct has no more ultimate mind-independent existence than a shared dream. However, whatever ontological model is adapted, even idealism, there is no definitive languaging of this. But speaking of idealism, some may be inclined to check out this latest interview with Bernardo Kastrup who once again makes the case for idealism

[StephenK]

I may as well ask this question here rather than create my own thread since it is of a similar nature to Joseph Maynor's  question: If the dream allegory is to be used, then everything is to be seen as illusion arising within 'nothingness'. That is, things lack substance and innate existence to them. Why then, do people who claim to be in this 'state' speak to other people as if they're independent minds, whilst appearing to ignore their assertion that 'people' are nothing but paper-thin fleeting illusions? Please explain this to me.  

[Heart of Space]

2 minutes ago, StephenK said:

I may as well ask this question here rather than create my own thread since it is of a similar nature to Joseph Maynor's  question: If the dream allegory is to be used, then everything is to be seen as illusion arising within 'nothingness'. That is, things lack substance and innate existence to them. Why then, do people who claim to be in this 'state' speak to other people as if they're independent minds, whilst appearing to ignore their assertion that 'people' are nothing but paper-thin fleeting illusions? Please explain this to me.  

Because there are still structure that this dream adhere's by.  It's the same reason why people in that state don't try to walk through walls  

[StephenK]

Just now, Heart of Space said:

Because there are still structure that this dream adhere's by.  It's the same reason why people in that state don't try to walk through walls  

But to presuppose the existence of other minds, you need to believe that the materialist paradigm is real. Otherwise you can't be sure that awareness resides in anything outside of your own awareness.

[Heart of Space]

Just now, StephenK said:

But to presuppose the existence of other minds, you need to believe that the materialist paradigm is real. Otherwise you can't be sure that awareness resides in anything outside of your own awareness.

You don't need to presuppose the existence of other minds to play the role of an individual reacting to other individuals in the dream.  It's not necessary.

[Patang]

8 minutes ago, StephenK said:

I may as well ask this question here rather than create my own thread since it is of a similar nature to Joseph Maynor's  question: If the dream allegory is to be used, then everything is to be seen as illusion arising within 'nothingness'. That is, things lack substance and innate existence to them. Why then, do people who claim to be in this 'state' speak to other people as if they're independent minds, whilst appearing to ignore their assertion that 'people' are nothing but paper-thin fleeting illusions? Please explain this to me.  

this is done in order to be understood properly. in order to communicate, the two must stand on common ground, speaking the same language, kind of.

[Truth]

@Joseph Maynor

We know exactly what Leo is smoking and I wanna try some.

[StephenK]

1 minute ago, Heart of Space said:

You don't need to presuppose the existence of other minds to play the role of an individual reacting to other individuals in the dream.  It's not necessary.

Ok, got it. So if I was fully embedded in this state, I would perceive you as nothing more than an empty arising within awareness? How then does morality play into this? Why be moral if everything is 'self'?

4 minutes ago, Patang said:

this is done in order to be understood properly. in order to communicate, the two must stand on common ground, speaking the same language, kind of.

 I see

[Heart of Space]

Just now, StephenK said:

Ok, got it. So if I was fully embedded in this state, I would perceive you as nothing more than an empty arising within awareness? How then does morality play into this? Why be moral if everything is 'self'?

That is correct.  

There is no reason to be moral.  There is no reason to be immoral.  Being in this state is essentially being in a state of full love and acceptance for oneself.  Do you harm or treat unfairly the ones you love?  

 

[cirkussmile]

The substance of "I" is does not excist and when you see that you simultaneously see that the world is the same substance. It's built out of nothing. 

Does it mean that the world dissapers in a smokey cloud? Of course not! Everything is still the same but now, hopefully, you live your life from this deep understanding. 

All this intelectual nonsense means nothing if it doesn't change how we treat other beings.

[StephenK]

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

That is correct.  

There is no reason to be moral.  There is no reason to be immoral.  Being in this state is essentially being in a state of full love and acceptance for oneself.  Do you harm or treat unfairly the ones you love?  

Sometimes I treat my loved ones unfairly, but I mostly treat them with respect and love, yes. What do you feel when you observe the perceived 'suffering' around you? Are you compelled to help? I'm trying to figure out what this motivational space would look like, since I do not embody it myself at present. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by StephenK

[Shanmugam]

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

As you allege?

Am I just supposed to take your word for it?  

That's a big claim.  A belief to boot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor

A lot of people don't even know what Ontology is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology

 

Here are the words of Osho from this talks titled 'The Beginning of the Beginning'...

It is not a dream life to you; it is real. When you see a dream the dream is real. Somebody who has awakened from sleep may go on saying that whatsoever you are seeing is just a dream, but the person who is dreaming, he is dreaming a reality, not a dream. In a dream, howsoever absurd, you cannot feel it as a dream. You believe in it, because once you feel it is a dream the dream disappears. The dream cannot remain there, your cooperation is withdrawn. You can cooperate only with reality, not with dreams; and if you cooperate dreams become reality -- it is through your cooperation.

In the night, deep in sleep, you dream that you have become a king. You may be a beggar, or vice versa: you may be a king and you dream that you have become a beggar. But in that dream you are so identified you cannot think that it could be a dream. If you can think that it could be a dream, the dream will stop immediately. It will be broken, you will come out of it.

If you realize in dream that it is a dream the dream is broken, the dream cannot exist. It exists through your cooperation, your identification is needed. If you are committed to it, if you get involved in it, only then can it continue. And the same happens with the greater dream which is life. When you realize this is a dream, immediately you have become a Buddha, you are enlightened. But this enlightenment cannot happen to you by others' knowing, others' wisdom.

Buddha may go on calling to you that this is a dream you are living, but you will only feel that this man is a disturbance, a constant nuisance, he is disturbing your life. That's why we kill such persons. Socrates -- we poisoned him because he was a great disturber. Jesus -- we crucified him because he was a nuisance. Everybody is dreaming such beautiful dreams, and these persons unnecessarily, and without being invited, go on disturbing people and saying to them, "Wake up! You are dreaming. This is a dream." And the man may have been dreaming such a beautiful thing that he could throw away all life for that dream.

If you become alert a dream disappears; if you become alert of your misery, the misery disappears. You cling to it because you think it is not misery, or some happiness is hidden somewhere in it. It may be misery outwardly, but a deep treasure is hidden behind it, so you have to cling to it for that treasure. Your life is misery -- but not for you. Realize its misery, it falls down. The very truth transforms you. And the moment misery falls the divine is revealed. To a miserable mind the divine cannot be revealed. To a celebrating mind the divine is revealed.

Remember, only to a celebrating mind, to a mind which is happy, blissful, enjoying moment to moment, ecstatic, is the divine revealed. To a miserable mind the divine cannot be revealed, because a miserable mind is closed. The divine is here and now, but you are not here and now. If you are also here and now then the divine will be revealed to you.

[Heart of Space]

4 hours ago, StephenK said:

Sometimes I treat my loved ones unfairly, but I mostly treat them with respect and love, yes. What do you feel when you observe the perceived 'suffering' around you? Are you compelled to help? I'm trying to figure out what this motivational space would look like, since I do not embody it myself at present. 

We all embody it to varying degrees.  In regards to seeing suffering in others, you don't lose sleep at night per say, but you have a deep compassion for their human experience and that can often drive you to help them if even in a subtle way. 

[Nahm]

8 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

As you allege?

Am I just supposed to take your word for it?  

That's a big claim.  A belief to boot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor

A lot of people don't even know what Ontology is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology

 

Don’t believe anything. The answer to that question is the direct experience and therefore realization of actual absolute Self, without belief or thought. The practices and psychedelics are one path, one way. Decades of meditation is another way. This is exclusively what Leo is pointing at, because he has experienced this. In his live enlightenment video (as a reference) when he experiences there is no “me”, he’s referring to Leo the human (the absolute realizing Leo is it’s own maya). When he says it’s all me, I don’t die, etc, he’s pointing at the absolute that ‘he’ actually is. One’s experience and therefore meaning of the word “me”, is the difference, but it can not be understood, it must be experienced directly. The self / no self, free will / no free will / existence / no existence, are just thought tools to open the mind, and free us from deep beliefs and assumptions. Like an ice pick breaking chunks off of the absolute. Most turn those paradigms into their beliefs, claiming enlightenment. An enlightened ‘person’ would not claim they are enlightened. That is always for an observer to decide, never the self. This ‘observer’ is also the absolute, but still has ‘chunks’, and therefore is not aware of what they are. After experiencing the absolute, it is crystal clear that their is only you, so there is no other to tell you are enlightened. The thinking of philosophies and thinking about thinking, and the beliefs about self, no self, nothing, everything, God, all theory & science; all are added to the absolute. The process is removing all of that to experience directly what you are. Upon experiencing the absolute, it is revealed, effortlessly. You’ll never not be absolute in an illusion of your own relativity after. Hilariously, it will then appear how it was obvious all along, and it was you who imposed otherwise, you as in the absolute which added the ‘chunks’. It becomes obvious that everyone is you, and the substance, or ‘absolute’, is love in the literal sense, and the word love is just a pointing finger, just like the word ‘me’. This love, this absolute, will burn your finger prints off and literally rewire your brain to the truth (because they were only maya all along, but now are fully realized). When memories occur, they make you laugh as they are experienced with this completely different awareness. Don’t believe me. It must be experienced. 

 

[Shanmugam]

7 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Don’t believe anything. The answer to that question is the direct experience and therefore realization of actual absolute Self, without belief or thought. The practices and psychedelics are one path, one way. Decades of meditation is another way. This is exclusively what Leo is pointing at, because he has experienced this. In his live enlightenment video (as a reference) when he experiences there is no “me”, he’s referring to Leo the human (the absolute realizing Leo is it’s own maya). When he says it’s all me, I don’t die, etc, he’s pointing at the absolute that ‘he’ actually is. One’s experience and therefore meaning of the word “me”, is the difference, but it can not be understood, it must be experienced directly. The self / no self, free will / no free will / existence / no existence, are just thought tools to open the mind, and free us from deep beliefs and assumptions. Like an ice pick breaking chunks off of the absolute. Most turn those paradigms into their beliefs, claiming enlightenment. An enlightened ‘person’ would not claim they are enlightened. That is always for an observer to decide, never the self. This ‘observer’ is also the absolute, but still has ‘chunks’, and therefore is not aware of what they are. After experiencing the absolute, it is crystal clear that their is only you, so there is no other to tell you are enlightened. The thinking of philosophies and thinking about thinking, and the beliefs about self, no self, nothing, everything, God, all theory & science; all are added to the absolute. The process is removing all of that to experience directly what you are. Upon experiencing the absolute, it is revealed, effortlessly. You’ll never not be absolute in an illusion of your own relativity after. Hilariously, it will then appear how it was obvious all along, and it was you who imposed otherwise, you as in the absolute which added the ‘chunks’. It becomes obvious that everyone is you, and the substance, or ‘absolute’, is love in the literal sense, and love is just a pointing finger. This love, this absolute, will burn your finger prints off and literally retire your brain to the truth. Don’t believe me. It must be experienced. 

 

wow... This is exactly what I was trying to say in the other thread, where the topic was about hell... How come you are very clear here but were still disagreeing with me before?  .. Are you on any psychedelics right now? 

[Shanmugam]

@Shanmugam

"In his live enlightenment video (as a reference) when he experiences there is no “me”, he’s referring to Leo the human (the absolute realizing Leo is its own maya). When he says it’s all me, I don’t die, etc, he’s pointing at the absolute that ‘he’ actually is. One’s experience and therefore meaning of the word “me”, is the difference, but it can not be understood, it must be experienced directly"

Spot on... When this is the moment to moment experience of reality, the seeking is over... In the dualistic terms when it is said that he/she is enlightened, this how one experiences the reality every moment.