Either you are enlightened or not enlightened

[Shanmugam]

33 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Ok, so you say it's either you are or you are no tand there are no increments or degrees of it, another may say it isn't like that at all.

As an example, there is no binary on-off position to enlightenment at all, that it's always there, we are always enlightened and there are many incremental degrees of awakening to that ever present enlightenment with all of those degrees still being enlightenment.

That's very much different than your description, not just a different word choice or different articulation of it, it's completely different.

So can these be this same "absolute truth" and "enlightenment"?

The description you gave is not wrong at all. Because, you said that it is always there, which is true. What you are saying is, everyone is already enlightened. It is not something that has to be attained. But this is not in everyone's experience. So, there are always stages in the progress, which is undeniable. 

But whatever I write is intended to help people so that they don't get trapped anywhere in anyway. For example,  If a teaching simply begins by saying 'You are already enlightened, There is nothing you can do to be enlightened, etc", how many people do you think will find such a teaching useful?

When I say enlightenment is binary, it is intended to help people. I know how the human mind works and I am aware of the fact that there are millions of ways in which people can fool themselves. And I can clearly see how safe it is to tell people that 'you are either enlightened or not enlightened'. I am not the only one who said it though. Ramana Maharshi said the same thing and Osho said the same thing too. Even Sadhguru, who I criticize often, also says the same thing. So, what is the problem? 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Shanmugam

[Faceless]

There is only a state of ‘enlightenment’

which can not be invited

thats what makes it so beautiful 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Faceless

[Shanmugam]

@SOUL One thing that I have recognized very clearly is that language is a double-edged sword. Language helps people to understand. But it is the same language which also leads people to misunderstand...

Talking always in the absolute language is not going to help anyone. 

And what you said will make sense only because of the statement 'Everyone is always enlightened'. If that statement was not there, it would be a problem. 

 

[Faceless]

Not to have a motive is essential. I find it much less conflicting when we simply pay attention/awareness to our thoughts throughout the day. 

Attention without motive.

Desiring a self induced image only prevents attention without control and perpetuates conflict.  

Just observe without attempting to change what is. When we understand what it takes to live in order then we see the necessity of dying to disorder psychologically. 

[SOUL]

@Shanmugam I had just written a detailed reply but decided to erase it because it's pointless to dissect all the statements you have made when it all revolves around the same thing. You put so many limitations with can'ts and don'ts on enlightenment, absolute and infinite that it's so funny... limitations on the infinite! Really? Then call it "truth"? Haha!

The absolute infinite has absolutely infinite potential, it's our own limiting beliefs that create a narrow path to realizing it. Separation dissolves in awakening to this simple "truth" and is pure love, joy, peace....bliss

Edited February 8, 2018 by SOUL

[Shanmugam]

29 minutes ago, SOUL said:

@Shanmugam I had just written a detailed reply but decided to erase it because it's pointless to dissect all the statements you have made when it all revolves around the same thing. You put so many limitations with can'ts and don'ts on enlightenment, absolute and infinite that it's laughable... limitations on the infinite! Really? Then call it "truth"? Haha!

The absolute infinite has absolutely infinite potential, it's our own limiting beliefs that create a narrow path to realizing it. Separation dissolves in awakening to this simple "truth" and is pure love, joy, peace....bliss

What limitations are you talking about? What do's and dont's are you talking about?

I am not talking about the limitations of truth or enlightenment. I am talking about the limitations of language. Is it too hard for you to understand?

Are you a student of neo-advaita? I remember you saying in another post that all one needs to understand is just 'I am that I am", when I was discussing about another book I was going to write. You were also concerned that why is there a need for too many words.. If your concern is about using too many words, then what are you even doing here in this forum? Just sit in silence and teach people in silence. Or just write 'I am that I am' in your forehead and walk around the city.

I write for everyone. And I know perfectly well  that if you just walk out of your house and say 'You are already enlightened' to the next random person that you meet, he is not going to understand a damn thing about it.

My posts are intended to guide people, just to show them the way that I found. And I remember all the obstacles and traps I went through. I just don't want others to get into those traps and be careful about it.

I am interacting with many kinds of people in my blog, in quora and in forums. The kinds of people include hard core rationalists who even reject  meditation as useless, vedantins who are so much identified with tradition, followers of certain cult leaders who want to engage in verbal wars with me, religious people, psychologists and true seekers. And I can't say to them, 'Just realize I am that I am and be done with it'... There are ways to talk to each of those groups,

So,most of the things I discussed with you in this thread is about communication. Understand?

I am not really sure about the exact intention of your interaction in this thread. You don't sound like someone who is asking for help, and thats fine... I am not looking for a help towards liberation from you either, because I am no longer seeking. So, what exactly is your concern here?  If your intention is to say 'look, I am better than you', then shut up and get out...

I am not insulting you... 'Shut up and get out' is a teaching by Swami Chinmayananda..

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Shanmugam

[Heart of Space]

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

The problem with referring to enlightenment as binary is reflected in so many “I’m enlightened now” posts.  One can mistake the void, the nothingness, the meaninglessness, the visceral oneness, the “seeing” of relativity, the revealing of the illusion, etc, for “it”. The danger with this binary message is they go no further, because these experiences liberate from the material paradigm, and sure seem to be the pinnacle, never having actually experienced the absolute, the only self, the being, the love that all is. 

Then, sure, it is binary. But that verbiage is not worth the trouble it gives one on the path. 

And still, there are no ends nor beginnings, so all is an end and a beginning. 

Yea, this is a pretty spot on post.  And I just want to clarify something about my post where I claimed I was enlightened to you specifically.  I partially called myself enlightened because at the time it was hilarious at the expense of my ego's previously held beliefs about how grand enlightenment was and the added context of my insane life struggle to escape my suffering and achieve something that ended up being far more subtle and ordinary than I could ever imagine.  I'm not special, I'm highly fallible,  always learning and that will never stop.  It was just a beautiful moment for me and gave me a lot of hope and love for the world in addition to seeing through illusion.  But yea, if you see me step out of line, Nahm, feel free to bitch slap my ass (*erhm my enlightened ass ) because I'm definitely not above making mistakes.  I guess respect (and everyone here as well of course), so I wanted you to know that I'm not completely delusional.  

Edited February 8, 2018 by Heart of Space

[Heart of Space]

@ShanmugamYea, I don't really find your argument for it being binary very compelling when everything in my experience tells me it's the opposite.  I'm more than willing to eat my words on this my friend.  That wine metaphor isn't so much a good argument either, at least to me.  Love ya, buddy, you make some really well written posts so don't take this as me denigrating you as a poster.  I value your contributions.  

[Shanmugam]

1 minute ago, Heart of Space said:

@ShanmugamYea, I don't really find your argument for it being binary very compelling when everything in my experience tells me it's the opposite.  I'm more than willing to eat my words on this my friend.  That wine metaphor isn't so much a good argument either, at least to me.  Love ya, buddy, you make some really well written posts so don't take this as me denigrating you as a poster.  I value your contributions.  

If you feel like it is not a problem for you, then its fine.. No problem. Not everyone goes through the same problem...

As I said, what I write is strictly based on my own experience - from the time I was starting out as a seeker till this date. That is the only choice I have. And people who  have the same personality as me would find many of these things certainly helpful. Above all, I have seen an older version of my 'old little self' in many people  I have come across. So, sometimes I do see exactly what they are going through.

[Shanmugam]

@Heart of Space thank you for your love

[Natasha]

5 hours ago, Ocean said:

"Wisdom is knowing I am nothing,
Love is knowing I am everything,
and between the two my life moves.”

― Nisargadatta Maharaj

Love that quote.

[Shanmugam]

@SOUL @Heart of Space

Something that I want to add here..

I was exposed to very deep teachings when I was too young. And I totally misunderstood them, until I came across Osho's books when I was about 18 or 19 years old. And he indeed was a genius. He was also probably the only teacher who has created different impressions about him on different people. One group would think of him as a dangerous, fraudulent cult leader who was as evil as devil. Another group would think of him as the greatest spiritual guru of this century. In fact, if a person reads a random page from a random book of Osho for the first time, it is very much possible that he would put that book down and hate him for the rest of his life.

But after reading Osho, everything that I had learnt before made perfect sense to me. And three years after reading Osho, everything that I read from Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Eckhart Tolle and many others made perfect sense to me as well.

And let me tell you what Osho did and how he taught. During his initial years, he talked about Jesus; Christians gathered around him and became his disciples. He talked about Krishna; Vaishnavas became his disciples. He talked about sufis; many muslims became his disciples. He talked about yoga; and many people who were inclined towards yoga became his disciples. He did that for every tradition for many years. Then suddenly one day he stopped giving public talks.

So much illegal things happened during two years when he was in public silence. Many people committed crimes and many people left. After two years he started to talk again. And his talks were so different this time. Do you know what he said?

He said that he couldn't talk directly to people because each person was conditioned according to his own tradition. Nobody listened when he started to talk the first time. So, he went their way and started talking about their traditions. People were attracted. Once he found enough people to pass his teachings to next generation, he wanted to get rid of unwanted people. So, he went silent for two years. Many people left as he expected. He then started criticizing about everyone, including Jesus, Krishna and even Buddha. It is a trick again. But this time no one left! And he could teach them directly and bluntly. This way, he appealed to many people and he also busted many myths. I will talk more about him when I find time.

The only way to show my gratitude towards Osho is to keep passing the light he gave me. He saved me from suicide and I want his vision to come true.

[Shanmugam]

10 minutes ago, Natasha said:

Love that quote.

wow, I missed that quote in this thread the first time it was posted.. Thanks for bringing it back. I love that quote too.

[Faceless]

What’s a Osho ? 

[Heart of Space]

@Shanmugam  Yea, I assure you I don't disregard Osho even if I haven't delved too deeply into his teachings.  I understand this whole path well enough to no longer project my own ideal of how enlightenment should be expressed in human form and behavior.  Of what I've seen of him he seems very intelligent and puts across the idea's in very charismatic and creative ways.  I'll probably get around to reading some of his work at some point.  

Edited February 8, 2018 by Heart of Space

[Shanmugam]

3 minutes ago, Faceless said:

What’s a Osho ? 

Good question ...

I am waiting to see your reaction after I tell you his original name...

Do you know Rajneesh?

[Faceless]

@Shanmugam

no.. it’s a person? 

[Natasha]

10 minutes ago, Faceless said:

What’s a Osho ? 

Tell the son to get off your head 

[Faceless]

Just now, Natasha said:

Tell the son to get off your head 

Lolol he can do what he wants with my head. I prefer to be headless anyway?

[Shanmugam]

@Heart of Space Sure.. Most of his books are available for free online. He didn't write them but those books are the collections of his transcribed talks.

I will give you a crash course on how to read his books for free.

If you go to this link, you will find the complete timeline of his talks and you will also find the name of the books: http://www.sannyas.wiki/index.php?title=Osho_Events

You can just copy the name of the book and search in google by adding the word 'pdf'.

You can also read all his books for free in this online library: http://www.osho.com/iosho/library/the-books .

You would need to register for free there if you want to read more pages. It is free registration.

Read his books casually, as if you are listening to your friend gossiping. If he sounds like a jerk, don't mind and treat him like one of your close friends who always talks like a jerk.

He lies a lot and he admits it. He didn't care about factual accuracy and he admits it too. His main intention was to crack the hard nut that surrounds people's minds. That hard nut is made up of years and years of conditioning. You can enjoy many adult jokes and interesting stories.