Either you are enlightened or not enlightened

[Faceless]

Only when there is observation without that of the past ‘the observer that is the result of thought’ is there total intelligence. Only when the division between the thinker and the thought ceases is there liberation ‘freedom from the self’ freedom from conflict. 

This implies the there is no center to ‘become’ any longer.

 

[Shanmugam]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

So in other words, you've declared it so by your definition.

How sneaky of you.

Apples can only be red. There may be green ones and yellow ones, but those are not apples. Apples are only apples when they are red.

Lol

Not really sure how you understood my post. Probably, the problem is with the words I am using.

Let me put it this way.

Every person has a story, the story of 'me'.. This story is the most important thing in a person's life. A person seeks a consistency, protection, enhancement, and justification to this thought story. Past and future are very important to the story. Self-improvement is very important inside the story.

When a person is seeking, there may be non-dual glimpses where the story temporarily loses the continuity. In fact, it happens every day when he sleeps. But permanently waking up from this story is enlightenment. After enlightenment, there is no longer a longing to seek consistency, protection, enhancement, and justification to this story at all. He realizes in his experience that this story is just a dream.

But the story of this person is still true to an on-looker. Anybody looking at him will still see him as a person. But this enlightened person doesn't really have a concept of himself. He doesn't even feel that his existence is time-bound. Even after enlightenment, a person continues to learn things in relative reality, but whether that happens or not is really not a matter of concern. The story still continues but the person doesn't really keep track of the story as much as he did earlier. He doesn't strive to maintain consistency to the story at all. There is a paradox of existence and non-existence.

But when he becomes a teacher, he may have a challenging job. Because he knows that other people see him as a person even though he himself doesn't really have a concept about him.

 

[Monkey-man]

 

[Nahm]

There is an ample amount of people, on this forum, who are ‘stuck’ in their assurance that their experience was ‘it’, and are not moving on the path. “It”, is ultimately binary, but that would not be known until one experiences absolute. If you experienced absolute, you would know this.

[Forestluv]

17 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

Not really sure how you understood my post. Probably, the problem is with the words I am using.

Let me put it this way.

Every person has a story, the story of 'me'.. This story is the most important thing in a person's life. A person seeks a consistency, protection, enhancement, and justification to this thought story. Past and future are very important to the story. Self-improvement is very important inside the story.

When a person is seeking, there may be non-dual glimpses where the story temporarily loses the continuity. In fact, it happens every day when he sleeps. But permanently waking up from this story is enlightenment. After enlightenment, there is no longer a longing to seek consistency, protection, enhancement, and justification to this story at all. He realizes in his experience that this story is just a dream.

But the story of this person is still true to an on-looker. Anybody looking at him will still see him as a person. But this enlightened person doesn't really have a concept of himself. He doesn't even feel that his existence is time-bound. Even after enlightenment, a person continues to learn things in relative reality, but whether that happens or not is really not a matter of concern. The story still continues but the person doesn't really keep track of the story as much as he did earlier. He doesn't strive to maintain consistency to the story at all. There is a paradox of existence and non-existence.

But when he becomes a teacher, he may have a challenging job. Because he knows that other people see him as a person even though he himself doesn't really have a concept about him.

 

This sounds a lot like Lisa Cairn’s description. She desribes an unstable transition period of about a week, followed by a sudden and dramatic vanishing of the story and self.

This seems similiar to the story of Santa Claus. A child may have questions and poke holes in the story. Yet at some point there is full realization it’s just a story and Santa Claus doesn’t exist. Never again does the person entertain the story.

[Shanmugam]

21 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Maxx There is an ample amount of people, on this forum, who are ‘stuck’ in their assurance that their experience was ‘it’, and are not moving on the path. “It”, is ultimately binary, but that would not be known until one experiences absolute. If you experienced absolute, you would know this.

Of course, it is very much possible for anybody to mistake an experience as 'enlightenment'. Anybody may conclude that this is it. It has been happening from time immemorial. It is just a game that ego is playing. Because the label of enlightenment sounds good for the ego.  But the problem will be worse when he thinks that enlightenment is not binary. Because, now ego has more options. Then the person has a lot of reasons to call himself as 'enlightened' 'guru' 'sadhguru' etc. He will impress people with information and fantasy. He will understand the temptations of sincere seekers and will continue to play with their temptations... If you really realize that you are the absolute, then you will realize that.

Thankfully for me, Osho's instruction helped me. I still remember those lines he used to say, which kept repeating in my mind when I was a seeker:

"You will encounter many beautiful moments. They will be absolutely convincing. You will certainly convince yourself that you got it. But keep moving. Don't ever convince yourself at any point that you got it."

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Shanmugam

[snowleopard]

@Shanmugam  Then the nomenclature an enlightened 'person' would be an oxymoron, as a 'person' can only be in relation to 'other-than-person', aka a duality -- however illusory it may be.

[Shanmugam]

2 minutes ago, snowleopard said:

@Shanmugam  Then the nomenclature an enlightened 'person' would be an oxymoron, as a 'person' can only be in relation to 'other-than-person', aka a duality -- however illusory it may be.

exactly.. An enlightened person is an enlightened person only for the person who is not enlightened.

[Nahm]

@Maxx For most, absolute is at their physical death, and that is fine. 

[Shin]

So, unless I have no desire to communicate that I am enlightened (when it happens, not if someone ask), then it is genuine.

Otherwise, bullshit ?

[Max_V]

@Nahm @Shin Just recently I've felt my self-acceptance and-love gone up by a lot. With that came, about 2 days ago, a feeling of so much love and compassion for everything during my meditation. It was a feeling that radiated from my chest and throat area through my entire body. 

I've learned by now that putting experiences and growth in to certain boxes of being this or that, often doesn't lead to anything good. 

Still... I'm curious , what could such a growing feeling of love in myself and around others mean?

[Nahm]

@Shanmugam well said! Some ask through aggression without asking, because the anger convoluted the mind, and I hear the question, and I see you hear the question. Questions are much easier to hear when you are the answer.  I know where we are all headed, and while there’s no rush, I love to play any role I can in expediting. We will never run out of love, but we can try, for eachother’s sake. In consideration for only me, yes, absolutely I agree with you, but it’s relative to what is best for the other who is seeking to know the self.  It’s fun though. Ultimately, binary or not doesn’t matter. What matters is only what is relative to the person seeking to know their self. If they say the oneness experience is it, and they hold it to be binary, they fool themselves and can waste years or even the rest of their life in ignorance. If one experiences ego death, but not their absolute nature, and hears it is not binary, they are inclined to continue. If someone experiences the void, and holds to binary, the rest of their life can be spent unknowingly justifying the void is the absolute, if they do not hold to binary, or being right, maybe they keep going, and experience the absolute. No shoe fits all. It is not as simple as binary or not, it is relative, until it is absolute. 

[Nahm]

@Max_V That’s awesome! ❤️ It means you’re doing the ‘work’, and seeing through some of your bullshit! Very happy for you Max! 

[Nahm]

@Shanmugam wise words man! ❤️ The paradox of existence and non, resolves all being absolute.

[Key Elements]

An enlightened person still has to live as a mind-body (ego) in maya (the world as we know it -- relative truth) after experiencing the no-self. He/she can now use this wisdom to improve himself/herself still living as an ego. The more the person is aware of this and practices this in the relative truth, the more the person is detached to the stories in the mind and the relative truth. 

[Shin]

6 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

An enlightened person still has to live as a mind-body (ego) in maya (the world as we know it -- relative truth) after experiencing the no-self. He/she can now use this wisdom to improve himself/herself still living as an ego. The more the person is aware of this and practices this in the relative truth, the more the person is detached to the stories in the mind and the relative truth. 

Quick look at an enlightened person:

 

 

Impressive 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Shin

[Shanmugam]

18 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Shanmugam well said! Some ask through aggression without asking, because the anger convoluted the mind, and I hear the question, and I see you hear the question. Questions are much easier to hear when you are the answer.  I know where we are all headed, and while there’s no rush, I love to play any role I can in expediting. We will never run out of love, but we can try, for eachother’s sake. In consideration for only me, yes, absolutely I agree with you, but it’s relative to what is best for the other who is seeking to know the self.  It’s fun though. Ultimately, binary or not doesn’t matter. What matters is only what is relative to the person seeking to know their self. If they say the oneness experience is it, and they hold it to be binary, they fool themselves and can waste years or even the rest of their life in ignorance. If one experiences ego death, but not their absolute nature, and hears it is not binary, they are inclined to continue. If someone experiences the void, and holds to binary, the rest of their life can be spent unknowingly justifying the void is the absolute, if they do not hold to binary, or being right, maybe they keep going, and experience the absolute. No shoe fits all. It is not as simple as binary or not, it is relative, until it is absolute. 

It all boils down to one thing.. There are two kinds of people who are seeking enlightenment.

One group is seeking enlightenment for wrong reasons.. They seek enlightenment because they see it as an achievement, the peek of self-improvement, the peek of knowing everything, an opportunity to impress people, an opportunity to become guru,  have an 'enlightened' self-image etc etc.. you name it. They will be fooling themselves for their entire life. No matter what teaching is given to them, they will simply find a loophole through which the thought story can re-enter and assert its existence.

The other group of people seeks enlightenment because they know that it is the only way out. Their seeking is true that they will somehow find their way out. They will learn from everything, including a fake guru. They did not choose to seek, but seeking chose them. I just found a story to illustrate this, which was shared by a member in our own forum. Here it is: 

 

 

[Key Elements]

37 minutes ago, Shin said:

Quick look at an enlightened person:

 

 

Impressive 

So cute! Great analogy. 

[Shin]

7 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

It all boils down to one thing.. There are two kinds of people who are seeking enlightenment.

One group is seeking enlightenment for wrong reasons.. They seek enlightenment because they see it as an achievement, the peek of self-improvement, the peek of knowing everything, an opportunity to impress people, an opportunity to become guru,  have an 'enlightened' self-image etc etc.. you name it. They will be fooling themselves for their entire life. No matter what teaching is given to them, they will simply find a loophole through which the thought story can re-enter and assert its existence.

The other group of people seeks enlightenment because they know that it is the only way out. Their seeking is true that they will somehow find their way out. They will learn from everything, including a fake guru. They did not choose to seek, but seeking chose them. I just found a story to illustrate this, which was shared by a member in our own forum. Here it is: 

 

 

Plz tell me how to stop being stupid and move to the second group, it's been 2 years, it doesn't want to stop its messiah complex bullshit

[Shanmugam]

@Shin May I know how you first got introduced to non-duality? And what kind of practices you have been doing?