Either you are enlightened or not enlightened

[Shanmugam]

I am just posting this since it is very important for many people here to realize, in case they don't know. Enlightenment doesn't have levels in itself. The progress in spiritual path that we are talking about is only about how much a person has purified his mind/unwired his mind/deprogrammed his mind from conditionings, concepts and identifications etc. But the duality exists until the last step of the spiritual path. You may be less identified, less attached to things. But that doesn't mean that you have reached a certain level of enlightenment. Enlightenment is binary.

Enlightenment is the disappearance of duality. There may be temporary non-dual glimpses or experiences. But that is not enlightenment. Enlightenment is breaking the duality forever. So, either duality is there or not there. There cannot be a partial duality. There cannot be a more or less enlightenment.

But after enlightenment, it certainly deepens. As you learn more about people, world and many other things, you may be able to see certain things with more clarity. But this is no longer a matter of concern. Because enlightenment completely removes the psychological lack, the feeling that there is more.. Because, enlightenment itself lets you to experience that you are one with reality. Reality itself cannot expand or contract, cannot grow or shrink. Because reality is infinity. There can be no further growth to infinity.

Here is an excerpt from the talks of Osho:

Question: OUR BELOVED MASTER,

DOGEN SEEMS TO BE SAYING THAT THE MORE PROFOUNDLY ENLIGHTENMENT TOUCHES
ONE'S BEING, THE MORE POTENT IS THE ENLIGHTENMENT. IS IT TRUE THAT THERE ARE
NO GRADES OF ENLIGHTENMENT - THAT ONE IS EITHER ENLIGHTENED OR NOT - BUT
THAT ENLIGHTENMENT, LIKE WINE, BECOMES MORE AND MORE MATURE?

Answer by Osho:

Maneesha, your understanding is right. There are no grades of enlightenment - either you are enlightened or not enlightened. But certainly, as enlightenment deepens, matures, reaches to your very roots ... It is just the right symbol: like wine, the older it is the better.

There are wine collectors ... You can find fifty-year-old wine, one-hundred-year-old wine - they are all wines. Fresh wine just produced from the garden is also wine. But a hundred-year-old wine has attained a certain quality of intensity, a density, which is lacking in the new arrivals. There are experts in the world who can tell exactly, just by taking a sip, how old is the wine.

It happened in a pub that a man said to the bartender, "Here is one hundred dollars. If you are ready to gamble with me, I will taste any wine you want me to taste and I will tell you its exact year." It was unbelievable, because wine testing is a very fine art. The offer was accepted. Each time he tells the right year when the wine was made, the bartender will pay him one hundred dollars.

He went on tasting and telling the exact year. It was so amazing, all the drinkers and drunkards who were there sitting on different benches gathered around; even those who were completely drunk became awake, "What is happening?" And the man was amazing.

Then suddenly a man from the back said, "I also want to join in the contest because I have got a wine. If you can tell me ..."

So he brought a full cup. The man tasted it, spat it out, and he said, "You idiot. This is human urine!"

But the man said, "Whose? I know it is human urine - but whose? Unless you can tell me whose, you are not a great taster."

Enlightenment certainly has no grades, but as time passes it deepens, sharpens, matures, becomes more and more rich.

From - Dogen the Zen Master A Search and a Fulfillment - by Osho

 

[Shin]

One of the more important thing shouldn't be too get too cocky once you get enlightened ?

Like thinking there is nothing more and you got it, and you're so special ?

After all isn't possible to become only partially enlightened (mind vs heart) ?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Shanmugam said:

Enlightenment is the disappearance of duality. There may be temporary non-dual glimpses or experiences. But that is not enlightenment. Enlightenment is breaking the duality forever.

So in other words, you've declared it so by your definition.

How sneaky of you.

Apples can only be red. There may be green ones and yellow ones, but those are not apples. Apples are only apples when they are red.

Lol

[Shanmugam]

@Shin An enlightened person can never think he is special. In fact, he really doesn't have a definition about himself. He doesn't consider himself as enlightened or not enlightened. If a person thinks or believes he is enlightened, he is certainly not.

Confidence is something that only belongs to a mind living in duality. For an enlightened person, there is nothing like 'confidence'.. Another way to say that would be that there is always a confidence.

[Arman]

transcending duality by flipping from one side of the binary to the other

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Shin]

15 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

@Shin An enlightened person can never think he is special. In fact, he really doesn't have a definition about himself. He doesn't consider himself as enlightened or not enlightened. If a person thinks or believes he is enlightened, he is certainly not.

Confidence is something that only belongs to a mind living in duality. For an enlightened person, there is nothing like 'confidence'.. Another way to say that would be that there is always a confidence.

I don't see how we could really know that no enlightened dude feels special, you only have your own experience right ? 
Event if it look stupid and impossible when you are it, you can't really know for sure right ?

Adyashanti talks about the mind vs heart awakening, so in a sense you can't be right, you could still only partially experience the truth, to a large degree, no ?

Edited February 7, 2018 by Shin

[Shanmugam]

2 minutes ago, Shin said:

 I don't see how we could really know that no enlightened dude feels special, you only have your own experience right ? Event if it look stupid and impossible when you are it, you can't really know for sure right ?

Actually, you are right! But is there any other choice? Every enlightened person only knows his experience. But I have compared what many people said regarding this.

And even though they may be contradicting each other on many things, they certainly agree on the disappearance of the sense of separation. (And Ramana Maharshi also said the same thing about enlightenment: You can either be enlightened or not enlightened. Half-baked enlightenment that is talked about in the forum is not enlightenment at all)

Regarding feeling special, I am not sure what Adyashanthi said and in what context he said it, but there is no feeling of special-ness that comes because of enlightenment itself. But if you ask me whether the enlightened person feel proud, it is certainly possible. But the pride is actually very faint. It is similar to how bright a night lamp will look in sunlight. . Again, this is also coming from my own experience, that is the only thing I can talk from.

This is exactly the reason why I keep insisting on bridging science (psychology) and spirituality. It is already being built. Many things are possible once they two are completely bridged.

[Blissout]

You are self realized when all suffering is exhausted. completely. never to return.

 

If one claims to be self realized and he still says from time to time I feel worry or anxiety... then you are not self realized.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Blissout

[Shin]

35 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

 

Regarding feeling special, I am not sure what Adyashanthi said and in what context he said it, but there is no feeling of special-ness that comes because of enlightenment itself. But if you ask me whether the enlightened person feel proud, it is certainly possible. But the pride is actually very faint. It is similar to how bright a night lamp will look in sunlight. . Again, this is also coming from my own experience, that is the only thing I can talk from.

 

Nono, I mixed up my post before editing correctly  

When I talked about Adyashanti, he talked about different types of awakenings.
You could experience infinite (heart) but no nothingness (mind) (or vice versa).

The way he phrased it was that you could be enlightened from the mind for a long time (so you only see that reality has no substance and you are it), then you open your heart and experience infinity too (divine love and deep connection with everything you interact).
It corroborate with what Rali from Naked Reality said in multiple videos.

@Shanmugam Doesn't answer my question though 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Shin

[Shanmugam]

@Shin One problem I always have when communicating is that every person has a different meaning for words.. Some people would say awakening and enlightenment is the same and other people would say both are different. It doesn't necessarily mean that there is a real contradiction but they just use the words in different meanings.. The problem will not be solved unless the terms are standardized. It will probably happen after spiritual enlightenment becomes an important topic in psychology.

Anyway, If I have to talk about my own experience, there was a shift that happened in 2002 and another one happened in 2014. Both were irreversible but only the one happened in 2014 actually removed duality.

Also, as I have been always saying, many things about spiritual enlightenment has been generalized for everyone, after observing only a few people.

But when it comes to whether enlightenment is binary or not,  any authentic guru who want to help people would not say that enlightenment is a life long process. Because, it will be a trap for people. Even though there is a life long deepening to enlightenment, no one can bypass the line where duality actually disappears forever.

[Ocean]

@Shin 

Poor use of words, heart (good for his crowd though), but the deepening thing is where that might fall into. If all separation drops, well, it's hard not to 'love' (or maybe better, appreciate) the shit out of everything - and everyone that appears - because its all the same. 

Even though it implies duality, if there is no you, 'relationship' to everything has to change/shift to the new paradigm and depending what pops up when it pops up that might take time - even though from the perspective of enlightenment, it doesn't take time, as past, future and even the present have very little bearing on ones life unless it's needed for the ego to play it's part.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Ocean

[Ocean]

@Blissout You find that most conversations people have are based around these issues. No problems, no worries...

For a while people found themselves saying towards me: "You're very quiet, is everything alright?".

"Yes, yes it is, and you?" 

I must seem very boring. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Ocean

[Shin]

14 minutes ago, Ocean said:

@Shin 

Poor use of words, heart (good for his crowd though), but the deepening thing is where that might fall into. If all separation drops, well, it's hard not to 'love' (or maybe better, appreciate) the shit out of everything - and everyone that appears - because its all the same. 

Even though it implies duality, if there is no you, 'relationship' to everything has to change/shift to the new paradigm and depending what pops up when it pops up that might take time - even though from the perspective of enlightenment, it doesn't take time, as past, future and even the present have very little bearing on ones life unless it's needed for the ego to play it's part.

You still don't answer the question you're like a politician who knows who can't answer but still wants to (no offense though)  

Well I don't really care that much, I'll see it myself soon enough (like in 1/15 years ).

[Nahm]

The problem with referring to enlightenment as binary is reflected in so many “I’m enlightened now” posts.  One can mistake the void, the nothingness, the meaninglessness, the visceral oneness, the “seeing” of relativity, the revealing of the illusion, etc, for “it”. The danger with this binary message is they go no further, because these experiences liberate from the material paradigm, and sure seem to be the pinnacle, never having actually experienced the absolute, the only self, the being, the love that all is. 

Then, sure, it is binary. But that verbiage is not worth the trouble it gives one on the path. 

And still, there are no ends nor beginnings, so all is an end and a beginning. 

[Nahm]

@Shin Yes!!! Much easier to open the mind than the heart. The mind can be exhausted into collapse, but the heart is an entirely transcendent matter. 

[Shin]

13 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Shin Yes!!! Much easier to open the mind than the heart. The mind can be exhausted into collapse, but the heart is an entirely transcendent matter. 

But have you the authority to talk about this, are you enlightened ? 

Are you the 0 of my 1 ? 

[Ocean]

21 minutes ago, Shin said:

You still don't answer the question you're like a politician who knows who can't answer but still wants to (no offense though)  

Well I don't really care that much, I'll see it myself soon enough (like in 1/15 years ).

What was the question? I thought I bridged the idea of the appearance of what some might call in the business 'heart enlightenment' to 'deepening' after after. If anything it could be just called body-enlightenment maybe, as your body expands to everything, not just to the thing dangling below your eye-line.

As you mentioned though, its always best to find out rather than ask questions or assume/speculate with knowledge/feelings. Everything will take care of itself after the fact, including so called errors being corrected, such as your mind/heart division which was collected from the outside.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Ocean

[Nahm]

@Shin I’m the egg. No wait, the chicken. Wait, hold, let me think about it. ......ya, I’m the egg. 

No, definitly the chicken. Well, maybe I’m the egg. Wait, no, in hindsight, I think I’m the chicken.

Yeah. for sure. I’m the egg. 

?

[Shin]

Just now, Nahm said:

@Shin I’m the egg. No wait, the chicken. Wait, hold, let me think about it. ......ya, I’m the egg. 

No, definitly the chicken. Well, maybe I’m the egg. Wait, no, in hindsight, I think I’m the chicken.

Yeah. for sure. I’m the egg. 

?

That's not a very enlightening answer ...

 

 

[Nahm]

@Shin