Let the bannings proceed

[Ibn Sina]

As audacious as it sounds, this decision I believe should be carried out non the less.  

This place is not like an agora where every possible idea is to be happily entertained, there are plenty of other forums for that. It is not an institution established on democratic ideals for inclusion of all possible sets of ideas and beliefs , but on ideals of spirituality, enlightenment  and self actualization. It is rather like a temple where people can happily come and go fulfilling their spiritual needs, like a meditation resort where people can mediate in peace. Is it good for atheists to go to a temple and start saying "There is no god,what are you stupid people doing here?". Good scientists just stay in their lab, have good time with their scientist friends, and certainly do not go from temple to temple, churches to churches, telling people that they are wrong, this entire thing is bullshit. Even Atheists like Dawkins say- "I don't care what you believe (as long as there is no conflict of interest like in legislation , climate change and so on)". People like Dawkins do not argue with their counterparts without permission. They create their own audience and conduct debate only on agreement. They do not certainly  actively infiltrate their dogma in  groups of people who do not hold the same beliefs.

Instead what we have here is people claiming to be scientific and rational, entering this forum and undermining the very values that this place is founded upon, just for the sake of entertainment , feeling superior, having the thrill of winning an argument or feeling smart.  If you have so much knowledge about science and the notion of truth based on materialists (in contrast to the spirit) and skeptics (in contrast to faith), what the hell are you doing here in this congress of people who clearly hold belief opppsite to yours?

Is it right that an athiest goes to a meditation resort and start preaching his ideals? 

Is it right that a thiest goes to a group of scientists working on a project and start preaching his ideals?

IF this forum's goal is the propagation of enlightenment knowledge , then there is  absolutely no logic in keeping these anti-spiritual people who, whenever someone someone will ask a question regarding enlightenment ,won't  budge a second to question the very existence of it and show the futility of the question hence, shift them towards a materialistic paradigm , and reduce the strength of this very organization which is based not on free thought, but faith in the absolute.

If this forum wants to continuosly debate about whether enlightenment exists or not, then it is doing just fine.

As I see it, the only reason Leo hasn't banned them yet is to maintain activity in this forum. But what I will say is that, the reason actualized.org exists is because there are many people with the faith in the absolute. There would be no actualized.org had every one abided  by the materialistic paradigm. Hence, there will be no damage to the forum by banning these people, but in contrast  there will be more productive and useful discussion on spirituality , furthering our horizon of understanding of the absolute , with the alternative being always stuck in the question of whether enlightenment exists or not.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Ibn Sina

[Leo Gura]

I don't like the idea of banning people for a mere difference of opinion.

People here are banned when they violate the list of Forum Guidelines.

The amount of flack I would get for banning people who disagreed with my philosophy would be endless. I have to bite my tongue a lot on here, so as not to appear dictatorial.

People who don't buy into enlightenment won't hang around here very long anyhow. They will naturally lose interest. The more realistic problem is people creating factions over their favorite version of nonduality while poo-pooing the rest. This is a much more serious problem which has plagued every spiritual community since the dawn of human civilization and spilled much blood. And the sad part is, people still haven't learned the lesson.

What we need most of all is tolerance and compassion for other perspectives.

[StephenK]

6 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

It is rather like a temple where people can happily come and go fulfilling their spiritual needs, like a meditation resort where people can mediate in peace. Is it good for atheists to go to a temple and start saying "There is no god,what are you stupid people doing here?". Good scientists just stay in their lab, have good time with their scientist friends, and certainly do not go from temple to temple, churches to churches, telling people that they are wrong, this entire thing is bullshit. Even Atheists like Dawkins say- "I don't care what you believe (as long as there is no conflict of interest like in legislation , climate change and so on)". People like Dawkins do not argue with their counterparts without permission. They create their own audience and conduct only on agreement. They do not certainly  actively infiltrate their dogma in  groups of people who do not hold the same beliefs.

I certainly don't think of this site as a temple. In fact, thinking of it as a temple is a bit creepy and authoritarian in my opinion. Because there is such a wide spectrum of beliefs and world views on this site, trying to divide people into camps of 'materialist' and 'non-materialists' is going to be problematic since not everyone will fall strictly into either camp. In the end, it is up to Leo to decide the direction of this site. What drew me to actualized.org was Leo's ability to rationally and articulately take on the materialist paradigm. Dialogue is good. If you're apposed to it (the materialist paradigm), don't reply to those comments. 

[Ibn Sina]

12 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

 

Spirituality that can't stand healthy skepticism isn't worth the name. 

Wrong.

There is no relationship between skepticism and spirituality, but only between skepticism and science. This is why Aquinas makes a distinction between knowledge found on reason and knowledge found on faith. 

One does not become a  Buddha without an extraordinary, god like faith in the phenomenon of enlightenment.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Ibn Sina

[Joseph Maynor]

You got people at all stages of development on here.  We must be tolerant and try to assist people where they are.  And remember, all students are also teachers in this work.  It is the Ego that's always playing the role of the teacher.  Some people cling to that identity.  That's a trap.  Sure, you can cling to it loosely, but if you cling to that strongly, that's gonna make you tone-deaf in a lot of ways.  What you are trying to do is see something that's already there but that the Mind is not ready to accept, because the Mind wants to look somewhere else for truth.  So, it's the Mind that realizes that beliefs are not the truth.  Once you get that, that's where you'll get your big crack.  But you can't force that.  You can't force a plant to grow by pulling on it.  But make sure you're doing the work.  It takes a lot of work.  You're not gonna get the shift without doing the work.  There is no simplified or easy path.  At least there wasn't for me.  It's not Leo's job to spoon-feed us.  You need to dive in and figure things out for yourself.  Enlightenment is about discovering your authentic-self.  So, this is a seeking mission for you.  The whole point of Enlightenment is the stopping of grasping.  This is called Enlightened Detachment.  Reality always shows you the truth.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Staples]

@Ibn Sina We need people like that for multiple reasons. The first is that they'll catch us on our bullshit if we ever go down that route. The second reason is that freedom of speech is extremely important for the continual development of the community. If no one disagrees here, how will we ever develop? 

To silence them and the people somewhere in the middle would lead us straight into a spiritual circle jerk.

[Dragallur]

@Staples +1 @blazed +1

4 hours ago, Ibn Sina said:

There would be no actualized.org had every one abided  by the materialistic paradigm.

Most people did not even know what "materialistic paradigm" is before Leo shot episode on it.

If you start to censore others you will lose and just close yourself in this bubble that you call spirituality, I guess that is how cults are created. I bet many people would be done with this community if it became even more toxic via censorship.

[Ibn Sina]

1 hour ago, Dragallur said:

Most people did not even know what "materialistic paradigm" is before Leo shot episode on it.

Well yes, no one knew what materialistic paradigm is, but that has nothing to do with whether they were or were not in materialistic paradigm. There were spiritually minded people who watched Leo's video on absolute infinity and enlightenment long before they knew anything about paradigms, and they wouldn't have  done so had they been fully in the materialistic paradigm, and that doesn't mean  they knew they were  or were not in materialistic paradigm.

1 hour ago, Dragallur said:

If you start to censore others you will lose

Lose? This is the problem. There is clearly a winner and loser as if it is a game.

1 hour ago, Dragallur said:

just close yourself in this bubble that you call spirituality,

Oh no, don't give that excuse that we will be in our closed bubble of spirituality if anti-spiritual  people are censured.  That is not why you people are here i.e to take us out of the spirituality bubble. Do you seriously think that you will be changing Leo's mind and the entire direction of actualized.org by debating with all that nonsense? You people exactly know what Leo believes , what people here believe in, and yet you come here with your science dogmas to debate with us. Its hard to believe that you people are altruistic enough to try to take us out of our bubble. Lets say if you people are right, then what validity does this project has? What validity is there to Leo's ENTIRE life work untill now?  To show that this ENTIRE project is invalid and have the thrill of doing so, you people are here.

 Leo has already decided to not ban anyone.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Ibn Sina

[Faceless]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't like the idea of banning people for a mere difference of opinion.

People here are banned when they violate the list of Forum Guidelines.

The amount of flack I would get for banning people who disagreed with my philosophy would be endless. I have to bite my tongue a lot on here, so as not to appear dictatorial.

People who don't buy into enlightenment won't hang around here very long anyhow. They will naturally lose interest. The more realistic problem is people creating factions over their favorite version of nonduality while poo-pooing the rest. This is a much more serious problem which has plagued every spiritual community since the dawn of human civilization and spilled much blood. And the sad part is, people still haven't learned the lesson.

What we need most of all is tolerance and compassion for other perspectives.

Yes indeed...Division due to conformity to ideals should be seen as they are as destructive, antagonistic, violent, and harmful to any type of community be it online or in our daily life in society. 

Does tolerance imply compassion. If we had compassion being no sense of division between ‘the ME and MY thoughts’ or division between one another would there even be this choice to tolerate one another or not? Is tolerance an action of compassion and love? 

I QUESTIONS THIS. 

I think it’s our responsibility to be aware of this. 

 

[Nahm]

@Ibn Sina Who needs more than the atheist? ❤️

[Dragallur]

@Mighty Mouse

24 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Well yes, no one knew what materialistic paradigm is, but that has nothing to do with whether they were or were not in materialistic paradigm. There were spiritually minded people who watched Leo's video on absolute infinity and enlightenment long before they knew anything about paradigms, and they wouldn't have  done so had they been fully in the materialistic paradigm, and that doesn't mean  they knew they were  or were not in materialistic paradigm

Ok,good point.

24 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Lose? This is the problem. There is clearly a winner and loser as if it is a game. 

Yes but it is game where you alone either lose or you alone win and it is your decision only.

26 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Leo has already decided to not ban anyone.

Yes and I was adding my thoughts as to support his decision and maybe bring something new here.

[pluto]

Banning has never stopped or prevented anything, it only creates and attracts more of that.

[Girzo]

You can always use ignore oprion. It works well.

[Forestluv]

@Ibn Sina Interesting. I have the flip perspective. It seems to me the forum is heavility weighted toward spiritual and metaphysical perspectives.

I’m a scientist and spend all day working with people bounded by the scientific paradigm. I often visit this forum to get exposure to non-scientific perspectives.

I find the notion of placing science and enlightenment in seperate camps interesting. Similar to placing sadness and enlightenment in separate camps.

 

[Source_Mystic]

@Ibn Sina I think there is a problem but I think it is your rigidity and lack of understanding. You misunderstand the reason for this forum. I do not see this forum as a place where the enlightened go to be left alone. I view this as a place for everyone beginner and adept alike to learn from one another.   There is a myriad of paths that will lead one to have enlightenment experiences you have to give people room to grow room to find what works for them. Enlightenment is not about dogma it is about bringing people to awareness and letting them have there own experiences. You can not dictate how when or what path they take. I am all for atheist pursuing enlightenment here as well as a satanist , christian , Buddhist Taoist , Wiccan   and another faith for that matter  as well as agnostic. There are mystics in almost every religious tradition.  Enlightenment is all inclusive as it must be. People will have various perspectives or interpretation  that they use make sense of their experiences it is not ones job to tell someone no that is not what you experienced what you really experienced was this.

  Your job is to manage your experience,  design your blueprint on how and what you are willing to do to get there.  It is not you job to micro manage others  or tell them  what they need to do and how to do it. That is called something else.

 

Dogma noun: dogma; plural noun: dogmas

A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

On 2/1/2018 at 4:00 AM, Leo Gura said:

What we need most of all is tolerance and compassion for other perspectives.

 

I happen to agree completely.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Source_Mystic

[Ibn Sina]

4 hours ago, Source_Mystic said:

You can not dictate how when or what path they take. I am all for atheist pursuing enlightenment here as well as a satanist , christian , Buddhist Taoist , Wiccan   and another faith for that matter  as well as agnostic.  Enlightenment is all inclusive as it must be. People will have various perspectives or interpretation  that they use make sense of their experiences it is not ones job to tell someone no that is not what you experienced what you really experienced was this.

Are you incapable of understanding what is written?

I was not dictating how they should follow the path to enlightenment, or when they should take the path to enlightenment, or which path of enlightenment should they take.

 I was talking about those who came to this forum and were vehemently denying the existence of the  phenomenon of enlightenment and denying the validity of every thing that Leo teaches or what this web site is all about. Just like an atheist moving from home to temple to temple, churches to churches, and out of no where telling the priests while they are in deep prayer or sermon,  that they are wrong, that they should stop doing what they are doing.  They were not pursuing enlightenment with a different interpretation which I was opposed to.  They were denying it, and along with it every other associated idea.  Can you understand what I am saying here? I am not talking about denying some people the opportunity to follow enlightenment.

I want you to quote me the sentences which I wrote that suggests I was saying that enlightenment is welcome for some people while it is not welcome for others. If you are not able to do so, I kindly request you to read and think properly and stop spewing nonsense. 

If I have written something, then I want you to understand it and reply to me accordingly. Just look at all other replies. Is there a single one which is talking about me saying that some people should be denied enlightenment? Why is it only you then? Read properly, understand properly THEN give your opinions.

4 hours ago, Source_Mystic said:

You misunderstand the reason for this forum. I do not see this forum as a place where the enlightened go to be left alone. I view this as a place for everyone beginner and adept alike to learn from one another.

So you think that I think this place is for only the enlightened and not the beginner ??? WHAT??? I myself am a beginner! Why would I be saying this place is only for the enlightened?  Where have I said that? Gosh you must be suffering from aphasia. And even if I were to say so, WHY would an enlightened person go to this forum? He is already enlightened. This is just completely illogical. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Ibn Sina

[Ibn Sina]

31 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

If you want to be enlightened then you too will have to question all of Leo's stuff and all of spirituality.

Are you mistaking enlightenment Leo talks about with the notion of reason and scientific attitude as espoused by Rousseau and Voltaire in the age of enlightenment of the 18th century Europe?  Look friend, this one is not about questioning. I assure you. I perfectly understand where you are coming from , but this is not what you think. Learn from Leo what he means by enlightenment. I am not in actualized.org to not learn from what Leo has to teach, and I hope you are not too.

31 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

This forum is already anti-truth and that's a fact.

Then what the hell are you doing here? Go away then. You think you are more smart then most people here, and somehow everyone here is deluded? I pity your profound ignorance.  

31 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

Nobody whose posts I've seen lately has a clue what enlightenment is,

 

Of course, you are this entity forever locked in this material paradigm.  One does not expect a blind person to see the light, to see the other. If you want to discuss science then hell yeah we can discuss , I can explain you how science works to the t,  but spirituality no, your paradigm simply doesn't allow it. You are just locked. And you don't know it.

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Ibn Sina

[Ibn Sina]

17 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

Good luck on your journey.

Thank you

[Nahm]

@Mighty Mouse What was your enlightenment experience like? Did you use practices, psych’s, self inquiry, maybe all of those, none of those? Also, what was your experience of the absolute like? What did you learn about yourself? Thanks in advance for sharing. I am not asking for advice, I am am curious about your experiences. 

[Ibn Sina]

11 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

@Thanatos13

@iluminado

HAHAHAHAHAHA what are you age 10? Calling your friends to spew the same bullshit just in a more articulated way then you can? You are clearly seeing this as a power dynamic opposed to a reasoned dialectic for truth. You are hopeless.