Identifying

[LastThursday]

So as I get deeper into being ever more concious, I hear this word 'identify' being banded around like it's some type of evil omen. But it wasn't until just now when it hit me, what the hell is this 'identifying'? It seems like the more I try and think about it, the less it means. Apparently, it's the source of all suffering, and suffering is to be avoided or at least dodged.

I understand the sense in which identification is a narrowing of the immensity of being and the point of enlightenment is expansion, infinitely. But surely identification is just recognition or awareness? I identify with being a human being, living in the 21st century. I identify with being a white middle aged man. Those attributes may be an arbritary construct of my mind, which in turn is an arbritary construct of my society. But surely if I do away with identification, I do away with reality altogether? And pop, there I go out of existence...

[LastThursday]

Thanks. So: indentify = context?

[LastThursday]

@Mighty Mouse Ok, ok, I get it, nearly. Any sort of mental web or layer or net I cast over reality is a context, interpretation or 'identification'. But honestly, at this precise moment in time - whatever that means - to understand anything about what I'm experiencing, I need context. If there is no ground, then what? Absolute oneness is surely absolute no existence in any sense, it's less than a bit of information, zero. I identify, therefore I am, I am therefore I suffer?

I want to stop suffering, I really do, isn't that the point of being self-actualised?  I want to reach a point where I'm not impeded by suffering and I can be fully authentic, a.k.a. I don't give a fuck, or more to the point, I'm not even aware of not giving a fuck? That would mean not identifying with a whole shed load of crap I currently immerse myself in.  But If I drill down to the the essence of the thing, then red is red, pain is pain, and lack of oxygen is death. How can I possibly not 'identify' with those things?  Are they not reality?

[lens]

@LastThursday Have you questioned why you suffer or what this thing you call an "I" is? How deep into it have you gotten?

[LastThursday]

@lens I guess I'm at the stage of being a Zen Devil. I know, but I can't/won't/don't know how to apply. I know deep enough to realise my entire experience is a fabrication, but I'm still intoxicated by it. What keeps my in my place? Two things. Imaturity and I guess the fear of death does, or more precisely the fear of lots of suffering does. There is an irony there.

What would lack of suffering mean to me? Complete freedom to be the animal I am. To kill my food and feed my loved ones and myself, to roam wherever I see fit, to mate when necessary, to use my skills to impress and to survive, to be bonded to a set of other animal humans, to understand the intricacies of the environment I live in, to live by my wits every second, to be sharp and alive and in tune with reality, to be pushed to my extreme as a human animal and come out of the other end, to be a hero!

I know, romantic isn't it?

Instead, it's 9 to 5, stuck in a artificially lit office, in front of a dazzling rectangle of meaninglessness, pushing buttons like a monkey all day, to go home and push a pizza into an oven for ten minutes, to sit and type nonsense into my laptop, then rinse and repeat. And for good measure an endless round of visiting and holidays in a pretense of 'getting away' from the grind. As Leo kindly says, prison.

 

[lens]

@LastThursday the only way out is through it. The more fear you have, and the more you try to find ways around it, the more the problem will persist. You have to embrace it, even if it feels like you are going to die from it. (that's the point)

 

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What would lack of suffering mean to me? Complete freedom to be the animal I am. To kill my food and feed my loved ones and myself, to roam wherever I see fit, to mate when necessary, to use my skills to impress and to survive, to be bonded to a set of other animal humans, to understand the intricacies of the environment I live in, to live by my wits every second, to be sharp and alive and in tune with reality, to be pushed to my extreme as a human animal and come out of the other end, to be a hero!

I'm seeing a lot of "I" and "my" here, try not get attached to "I need" because in truth you don't need to do anything, but realizing it truthfully will be stressfull. Are you struggling with the concept of no control?

Edited January 31, 2018 by lens

[Joseph Maynor]

 

[LastThursday]

3 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

Lol no, please don't let Leo's moralizing creep in.

Ha ha ha ha. That made me chuckle. In laughter there is truth eh? No offence.

I suppose language gets in the way. With all this conciousness work, my definition of 'you' or 'I' has somewhat expanded from the everyday version. I know or feel or whatever, that whatever 'I' am it is the totally of all the appearences and not apart from them. I feel or experience myself in everything. In other words all the appearences have 'me' in them, they're tainted with the essence of me and there's no way for me to step outside of that - in fact I wouldn't know how. So it's a simple step from there to say that I don't exist as a separate entity from the appearences, I am those appearences and no more and no less. 

Included in all the appearences are my thoughts and mental constructs, conditioning, yadda yadda. But. My ego is still part of reality, I am told that to be rid of it is bliss. My ego is part of me and I am my ego in small part, so what?

[LastThursday]

19 minutes ago, lens said:

I'm seeing a lot of "I" and "my" here, try not get attached to "I need" because in truth you don't need to do anything, but realizing it truthfully will be stressfull. Are you struggling with the concept of no control?

I know I don't particularly need that romantic version of me. It's just a narrative which salves the current suffering. But you've hit the nail on the head, I'm a control freak. Why do I control? I suppose because I've felft that others have always had more control over me than I have. If I can't control the world, I can at least control myself. Don't let that fool you, I know well enough the foolishness of what I've just stated. There is no 'me' to control. But that's why I'm a Zen Devil, I can think my way out of anything to the n'th degree, but I don't embody it. Maybe it's lack of practice?

[Nahm]

58 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

So as I get deeper into being ever more concious, I hear this word 'identify' being banded around like it's some type of evil omen. But it wasn't until just now when it hit me, what the hell is this 'identifying'?

We internalize experiences emotionally growing up, and build a “me” in our minds. When an emotion is negative, just like we use the body to defend the body, we also use our mind to defend our idea of “me”. A collection of thoughts, ‘ideas of me’ , grow into a persona, and is also referred to as the ego. It isn’t actually something, but the mind holds on tightly to the notion that it’s “who and what I am”.  But the I was never that. 

It seems like the more I try and think about it, the less it means. Apparently, it's the source of all suffering, and suffering is to be avoided or at least dodged.

Since we have these thuoght constructs, these egos, and since they are a self imposed mechanism used for defining self, we suffer, because what we actually are, is completely without suffering. We add the suffering, unbeknownst to our true self. 

I understand the sense in which identification is a narrowing of the immensity of being and the point of enlightenment is expansion, infinitely.

The point is to let go of all ego, all belief, all self deception, all misunderstanding of what you are, and experience your true self. 

But surely identification is just recognition or awareness? 

Identification is self deception. 

I identify with being a human being, living in the 21st century. I identify with being a white middle aged man. Those attributes may be an arbritary construct of my mind, which in turn is an arbritary construct of my society. But surely if I do away with identification, I do away with reality altogether? And pop, there I go out of existence...

You have no experience being what you’re referring to as “out of existence”. That is the self deception, the ego, the devil, at work. That’s what a mindfuck rabbit hole this enlightenment thing is. You have created an idea in your mind of what “out of existence” means and you believe your idea. That is an idea. It is not what you have experienced. Breathe meditation and do nothing meditation are great methods to become free of believing your thoughts.

 

42 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

Ok, ok, I get it, nearly. Any sort of mental web or layer or net I cast over reality is a context, interpretation or 'identification'.

You’re using the word reality to describe what is illusionary. You, are reality, and you can never see it, because you are it. You can, obviously, be it. You can experience only  being it, without the illusion present.  Takes an incomprehensible dedication. Years, decades typically. Imo, it is more worthwhile than any other pursuit. 

But honestly, at this precise moment in time - whatever that means - to understand anything about what I'm experiencing, I need context. If there is no ground, then what?

Then everything is relative. Happening in space time, which is your illusion. 

Absolute oneness is surely absolute no existence in any sense, it's less than a bit of information, zero. I identify, therefore I am, I am therefore I suffer?

The crazy thing about absolute oneness is it’s not that it doesn’t exist, it’s that it is transcendent to existing or not. Like how you probably know an atom is empty space, but since your a human person (not really) you are not concerned with that paradox. You are very transcendent to one atom, though you are made of atoms. Absolute is much more so transcendent to your person, though there is no separation there either. You are experiencing absolute right now. It’s all the thoughts you associate with the word “me”, that veil your experience of the absolute without anything being added. Just like you are experiencing one atom in your finger tip right now, though you are experiencing so much more, that the so much more covers the experience of a single atom. Both are happening, you’re just not aware of either. You’re in the right place though. That’s for sure. 

I want to stop suffering, I really do, isn't that the point of being self-actualised? 

YES. That’s and living the life that is your dream. Actually living the life that is your personal dream. Really, literally, creating and living your dream life, and nothing short of it. Experiencing enlightenment, and being free of suffering. Being free.     No, really.    Being. Free. 

I want to reach a point where I'm not impeded by suffering and I can be fully authentic, a.k.a. I don't give a fuck, or more to the point, I'm not even aware of not giving a fuck? That would mean not identifying with a whole shed load of crap I currently immerse myself in.  But If I drill down to the the essence of the thing, then red is red, pain is pain, and lack of oxygen is death. How can I possibly not 'identify' with those things?  Are they not reality? 

Your eyes, your body, your brain & nervous system, the air and your death, are illusionary. You, are not illusionary, but keep in mind, you don’t not exist nor exist too. 

It is very possible to not identify with them. Ever watch a 3 yr old snap back to joy after a shit fit? Takes them 10 seconds to get back to good. Takes some adults years. Sadly, some never do. Infants are more ‘infinite’, as they haven’t tacked on an ego yet. They are open minded, and haven’t identified with experience yet. 

 It demands a commitment, discipline and dedication paramount to and completely encompassing of any other endeavor on earth. You would have to completely open your mind, and adhere to a level of self honesty that rips falsities out of you. Emotionally speaking, there is no more challenging work. That’s how unfathomable this is to you right now. It doesn’t fit inside your mind. It didn’t fit in mine either. It’s literally unimaginable. The practices slow everything down. Meditation leads to not believing thoughts, then a state without thoughts. This creates mental space, which is the foundation for allowing more awareness. Self inquiry leads to realizing what you are not, and getting a strong sense that all is one, if done properly. From there, the actual work begins. 

The word for the illusion is maya. 

Maya is constantly tricking you. Maya is all around you, and everywhere inside you. Everywhere. You will trick yourself, unaware it is maya. 

[Nahm]

17 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

Ha ha ha ha. That made me chuckle. In laughter there is truth eh? No offence.

In laughter there is truth. In Joy, there is truth. In Love, there is truth. In authenticity, there is truth. In selflessness, there is truth. It is everywhere, and without the veil of ego, we can experience it for ourselves. It is beautiful. 

I suppose language gets in the way. With all this conciousness work, my definition of 'you' or 'I' has somewhat expanded from the everyday version. I know or feel or whatever, that whatever 'I' am it is the totally of all the appearences and not apart from them. I feel or experience myself in everything. In other words all the appearences have 'me' in them, they're tainted with the essence of me and there's no way for me to step outside of that - in fact I wouldn't know how. So it's a simple step from there to say that I don't exist as a separate entity from the appearences, I am those appearences and no more and no less. 

No. But you don’t have nearly as much ego to work through as people I know. Still, it’ll take everything you’ve got to experience reality as it is, and that’s just getting through how we underestimate what we need to do, then there’s doing the practices. 

Included in all the appearences are my thoughts and mental constructs, conditioning, yadda yadda. But. My ego is still part of reality, I am told that to be rid of it is bliss. My ego is part of me and I am my ego in small part, so what?

Your ego is not part of reality, it’s part of the illusion, which has no parts. That’s the key piece. Godspeed man. Again, I think you’re at the right place to experience what you’re lookin for. Best of luck to you!❤️

 

[Nahm]

7 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

I know I don't particularly need that romantic version of me. It's just a narrative which salves the current suffering. But you've hit the nail on the head, I'm a control freak. Why do I control? I suppose because I've felft that others have always had more control over me than I have. If I can't control the world, I can at least control myself. Don't let that fool you, I know well enough the foolishness of what I've just stated. There is no 'me' to control. But that's why I'm a Zen Devil, I can think my way out of anything to the n'th degree, but I don't embody it. Maybe it's lack of practice?

The romance doesn’t salve the suffering, the suffering deminishes the capacity for romance. It is as simple as, how does romance feel. You’ve got to let things be simple. The bliss is in the extraordinary. 

Oooohhhhh❤️ To embody...there is no greater joy possible. 

[lens]

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I know I don't particularly need that romantic version of me. It's just a narrative which salves the current suffering. But you've hit the nail on the head, I'm a control freak. Why do I control? I suppose because I've felft that others have always had more control over me than I have. If I can't control the world, I can at least control myself. Don't let that fool you, I know well enough the foolishness of what I've just stated. There is no 'me' to control. But that's why I'm a Zen Devil, I can think my way out of anything to the n'th degree, but I don't embody it. Maybe it's lack of practice?

@LastThursday it is lack of practice, if you want to see through it you will have to face it, whenever you feel "stinged" be aware for any attempts from deviating from the fact and go deep into it. To quote Big Bill Hell's

"DON'T WAIT, DON'T DELAY, DON'T FUCK WITH US OR WE'LL RIP YOUR NUTS OFF!"

 

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This is the difference between growth and truth. Truth is non-existence, as you put it. That's what no-self really means. Absolutely nothing there to be  considered a self, no matter how expanded or contracted.

There's no need to go there if you don't want.

Growth is going from segregated self to integrated self. From being the ego to seeing the ego. Which means you are a lot less bound by ego. That's a very good place to be if you ask me.

@Mighty Mouse What would you say stops growth from becoming the truth? Would it be an illusion of being the observer of the ego or just no full seeing it?

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, Mighty Mouse said:

Any number of things. Even the most highly developed individuals are usually still very deluded from the standpoint of absolute truth. Not necessarily in a bad way.

Absolute truth is by far the most radical possible thing, and it's very easy to stick with something not quite so radical. Either by intent or by mistake.

In the end growth and truth are very different. Enlightenment requires some development but nothing olympian. Becoming enlightened is not the same as becoming highly developed, and neither of them is required for the other.

 

Once you become Enlightened you’ll watch yourself develop yourself.  Enlightenment doesn’t change reality.  Reality will be whatever it is without your illusion of control.  There’s a difference between Egoic detachment and Enlightened detachment.  Egoic detachment is what causes your life to decay.  Enlightened detachment is just stepping back and letting life live in whatever way life lives.  Of course you have no control over any of this.  That’s the bitter pill no one wants to accept — you have no control.  That control that you think you have is a total illusion.  Those who accept this will have a different ride through this life than those who do not.  You will do whatever happens in this life — successful or otherwise.  But beware of Egoic detachment — that’s a trap and assumes you have control.  Get out of life’s way and let life live life.  The Ego is like the worst backseat driver ever.  Totally useless and irrelevant.  Just watch the Ego but don’t identify with it as ME.  You are Brahman, Reality.  All you gotta go is be Aware in the moment — that’s Atman.  And Atman = Brahman.  Brahman = Atman.  Maya is clinging to Belief.  Pick up beliefs when they’re useful, but put them back when they’re not useful.  The mechanic doesn’t have all of his tools under the car when he’s working.  He has the tools he needs, and after they’ve served their use, they go back into the toolbox.  After the job, he’s not gonna be carrying those tools around with him.  He picks up a tool when it’s useful and puts it back after it’s served it’s purpose.  We need to treat beliefs like this.  Beliefs are tools not truths.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Joseph Maynor