Confusions About Creating A Good Life

[Echoes]

First I want to say, that I have a strong desire to create a life that I want. I am currently in a stage where unresolved confusions seem to come back to me from the beginning of this journey of nonduality. They may seem infantile or like obvious self-sabotage, and maybe that is the case. But maybe I'm really not seeing something, and I think I would benefit if somebody is able to give me a new perspective. Point 1. is what is mostly confusing me.

1. This whole situation seems to be so absurdly relative. "Having life circumstances that I am not satisfied with and wanting to improve them" Why is this even a thing? Somehow I am. And then somehow there is a situation that someone wants to change. I don't even know why I am here or what this is, so how can I possibly know what's good for me, what I have to do, or what even is an improvement? Improvement based on what? Based on "This is not satisfying, there has to be something else"? But that's just a belief. This right here is all there is. There is only now. It's absurd to me to create something, when the basis of this whole "journey" of creating is so grotesque and mysterious as in: [somehow being somewhere and then somehow changing something to create pleasurable circumstances for someone]. How can I possibly know what is good for me? It doesn't seem to be a good idea to act with incomplete information. 

2. This whole thing of optimizing life, having a life purpose, improving myself, staying healthy, seems like just a big pretending game. We pretend that there is a world. We pretend that there is a brain. We pretend that we are this body. We pretend to have free will. We pretend we know what is good and we and the "world" needs. We pretend we are on a journey to somewhere. Examples:

The world is a thought story, yet one of the good options to create a good life seems to be to make an impact on the world. On what world?? Isn't it just pretending? Just like a kid pretends to be a fireman when playing with it's toys. 

Why nourish and optimize a "brain" if it doesn't exist? I don't try to optimize another made up organ. What is the difference between a complete made up organ, like "Unicornrainbow" and "Brain". If the brain REALLY(!) doesn't exist, why pretend that it does? We don't pretend that "Unicornrainbow" is an organ inside us. So "brain" seems to be there. And there seems to be a difference between a scientific established concept and a completely made up concept. Either the brain exist or it does not exist. The other option is silly: "It doesn't actually exist, but let's pretend that it exists because it exists somehow but doesn't actually" (????) So we pretend again.

If I am really, really, really!! not this body. Why create good circumstances for this body? Why search a partner for this body? I'm not concerned about creating good circumstances for a unknown body in china, because I didn't identify with this unknown chinese body. But I identify with the body that is currently typing this text. Isn't it then the better way to completely disidentify with this body also and don't bother about anything anymore? Just completely not giving a fuck about anything anymore in a  consequent way, even if it entails physical death. Wouldn't that be the more authentic option since this body is not me? I am aware that I am also this body, since I am everything. But thats hypocrisy to everyone coming with this argument. You care way more about the continued body which is appearing beneath you than any other body or thing. 

So it seems that this whole life is just farce. It's just pretending. Which isn't bad in and of itself. If you embrace it, it could actually be fun. So is this really the way? Pretending "as if" and then act "as if"? Embracing this dream, since it is all there is? 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Echoes

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Echoes said:

So it seems that this whole life is just farce. It's just pretending. Which isn't bad in and of itself. If you embrace it, it could actually be fun. So is this really the way? Pretending "as if" and then act "as if"? Embracing this dream, since it is all there is? 

You got half of the equation.

Yes, it's all just pretending. Yes, it's all a joke and only for fun.

But living a great life means still taking it seriously. Sometimes

[Leo Gura]

@Echoes So what's your proposed alternative?

You gonna pretend to sit on your ass in a nihilistic stupor? That's pretending too.

By all means, if you want, stick your body on a bed of nails and eat Cheetos.

What you're missing is, you can't derive an ought from an is.

[Shin]

 

No matter how much you experience life as a dream and how much detached you are from outcome

Just remember other people don't.

If you keep remembering that, then meaning will be easy to find.

[Echoes]

@aurum That's what my feelings tell me too. I think this "taking it serious" part is one of the major benefits that comes with actually having lived in the assumption/perspective that all is not a dream and unreal. It's not "oh, now everything is unimportant and silly" but more like appreciating the value of human life in context with the new found freedom.

 

[aurum]

3 minutes ago, Echoes said:

That's what my feelings tell me too. I think this "taking it serious" part is one of the major benefits that comes with actually having lived in the assumption/perspective that all is not a dream and unreal. It's not "oh, now everything is unimportant and silly" but more like appreciating the value of human life in context with the new found freedom.

 

You got it. We integrate, not disown.

[Echoes]

@Leo Gura It's not that I don't see that there are no real alternatives anymore once one fully grasps the significance of self actualization/personal development. I can never go back to the life of playing video games and eating junk food. My concern is with the more "basic" personal development stuff, which I seem to need most at the moment. Like creating a business, learning marketing, understanding how money works, creating a way to make money and all this stuff (maybe pickup, to get this area handled). I focused everything on Enlightenment/Psychology/Philosophy. And even though I need to figure some of this stuff out in my life, I can't find the drive to investigate my time in learning it somehow. Sometimes I think I'm deceiving myself with all this nonduality and the more theoretical stuff in order to avoid "real world" work.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Echoes

[Echoes]

@Shin That's a good one. But it's also very easy for the ego to co-opt this. The ego wants to feel significant and indispensable through helping others. 

Theres a good Jed Mckenna quote about this: 

“Wake up first. Wake up, and then you can double back and perhaps be of some use to others if you still have the urge. Wake up first, with pure and unapologetic selfishness, or you’re just another shipwreck victim floundering in the ocean and all the compassion in the world is of absolutely no use to the other victims floundering around you.”

[MisterMan]

4 hours ago, Echoes said:

First I want to say, that I have a strong desire to create a life that I want. I am currently in a stage where unresolved confusions seem to come back to me from the beginning of this journey of nonduality. They may seem infantile or like obvious self-sabotage, and maybe that is the case. But maybe I'm really not seeing something, and I think I would benefit if somebody is able to give me a new perspective. Point 1. is what is mostly confusing me.

1. This whole situation seems to be so absurdly relative. "Having life circumstances that I am not satisfied with and wanting to improve them" Why is this even a thing? Somehow I am. And then somehow there is a situation that someone wants to change. I don't even know why I am here or what this is, so how can I possibly know what's good for me, what I have to do, or what even is an improvement? Improvement based on what? Based on "This is not satisfying, there has to be something else"? But that's just a belief. This right here is all there is. There is only now. It's absurd to me to create something, when the basis of this whole "journey" of creating is so grotesque and mysterious as in: [somehow being somewhere and then somehow changing something to create pleasurable circumstances for someone]. How can I possibly know what is good for me? It doesn't seem to be a good idea to act with incomplete information. 

2. This whole thing of optimizing life, having a life purpose, improving myself, staying healthy, seems like just a big pretending game. We pretend that there is a world. We pretend that there is a brain. We pretend that we are this body. We pretend to have free will. We pretend we know what is good and we and the "world" needs. We pretend we are on a journey to somewhere. Examples:

The world is a thought story, yet one of the good options to create a good life seems to be to make an impact on the world. On what world?? Isn't it just pretending? Just like a kid pretends to be a fireman when playing with it's toys. 

Why nourish and optimize a "brain" if it doesn't exist? I don't try to optimize another made up organ. What is the difference between a complete made up organ, like "Unicornrainbow" and "Brain". If the brain REALLY(!) doesn't exist, why pretend that it does? We don't pretend that "Unicornrainbow" is an organ inside us. So "brain" seems to be there. And there seems to be a difference between a scientific established concept and a completely made up concept. Either the brain exist or it does not exist. The other option is silly: "It doesn't actually exist, but let's pretend that it exists because it exists somehow but doesn't actually" (????) So we pretend again.

If I am really, really, really!! not this body. Why create good circumstances for this body? Why search a partner for this body? I'm not concerned about creating good circumstances for a unknown body in china, because I didn't identify with this unknown chinese body. But I identify with the body that is currently typing this text. Isn't it then the better way to completely disidentify with this body also and don't bother about anything anymore? Just completely not giving a fuck about anything anymore in a  consequent way, even if it entails physical death. Wouldn't that be the more authentic option since this body is not me? I am aware that I am also this body, since I am everything. But thats hypocrisy to everyone coming with this argument. You care way more about the continued body which is appearing beneath you than any other body or thing. 

So it seems that this whole life is just farce. It's just pretending. Which isn't bad in and of itself. If you embrace it, it could actually be fun. So is this really the way? Pretending "as if" and then act "as if"? Embracing this dream, since it is all there is? 

I can't believe it! I am in exactly in the same boat as you! Exactly! Well the first part, when you go into everything doesn't exist understand that even this is just a thought. Operating in this world with no ego, no story i don't know if it's possible. We need to be able to make sense of the world, knowing that a brain is a concept not founded on reality helps but the brain exists in that it is physically there,  but all the meaning/context and concepts you attribute it to in your head is not. That is my understanding at this point.

So yeah i guess i am actually in agreeance with you as it is confusing as hell to see that everything you perceive is imaginary. I came to this thinking when

It's as if the mind is so open to not knowing it may as well be closed, it does the same thing. I'm guessing this is where FAITH comes in?

 

It's like I'm in limbo as nothing has more or less value than each other, how are you going to build a platform of values and morals when everything is an illusion? Can you operate with no values and morals? Does motivation work with no values and morals? All of the above is the source of my confusion. 

@Leo Gura  "You gonna pretend to sit on your ass in a nihilistic stupor? That's pretending too.

By all means, if you want, stick your body on a bed of nails and eat Cheetos."

 

By all means i don't want to sit in a nihilistic stupor nor i want to stick my body on a bed of nails. I don't want to pretend, but as i will loosely say an  Allan Watts quote Youu can live your life to the fullest and in the back of your mind you can have this "hintergedanken", of knowing it is all a play which allows you to fully embody yourself in the illusion without fear.

It appears whilst i have kept some knowledge, a good portion of it was lost as i do remember a sort of ZEST.

I do have a will to live a fulfilling life, however desire is a no no! Seeing as everything is a misunderstanding EVEN nihilism! I can't help but be in a state of confusion. Is my mistake in making a conclusion? Imparting a meaning of confusion? Should i just be? What then of planning your life? I understand there is nuance however i don't know all the nuances. How should me and my friend continue? Is there anything we should focus on in particular? As you said judging/anger is a state of misunderstanding, how can we attain some understanding here?

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by MisterMan

[MisterMan]

1 hour ago, Shin said:

 

No matter how much you experience life as a dream and how much detached you are from outcome

Just remember other people don't.

If you keep remembering that, then meaning will be easy to find.

Other people don't what? Dream? Detached of outcome? Experienc life?

[Galyna]

I had the same issue before. 

What really helps me? Deep realization that you don't have a free will, at all. Surrender and observe. Life will throw you somewhere, just observe for a while. Don't do anything,  when you go with the flow, you will be surprised to realize how much doll you are in the hands of unknown.  Believe or not, the game won't be over. You will have inspiration and proceed from that point. Release the tension and relax. And observe how life will sort everything out without any effort from you.

[Shin]

3 hours ago, Echoes said:

@Shin That's a good one. But it's also very easy for the ego to co-opt this. The ego wants to feel significant and indispensable through helping others. 

Theres a good Jed Mckenna quote about this: 

“Wake up first. Wake up, and then you can double back and perhaps be of some use to others if you still have the urge. Wake up first, with pure and unapologetic selfishness, or you’re just another shipwreck victim floundering in the ocean and all the compassion in the world is of absolutely no use to the other victims floundering around you.”

Exactly, that's also why we shouldn't take our life purpose too seriously.

Not only we could deceive ourselves about what it is, but even if we were sure about it, the ego will do anything to associate itself to it.

[Shin]

2 hours ago, MisterMan said:

Other people don't what? Dream? Detached of outcome? Experienc life?

They 100% believe they are a finite and separate being from the whole, and thus suffer for it.

[NoSelfSelf]

I had a similar topic i post,and i realized its still a mind playing games like it knows something, no! its destracting you from what is,when you truly grasp that its just a game you wont be affected in the same way you can play it if you want and dont there wont be any difference because there is no you playing it...

[Samra]

@EchoesIn my experience, throughout the course of your life, you go through different phases. Right now you seem to be going through a phase which is more concerned about certain things, and less about others. Try and go with the flow of it, instead of judging it. This will pass too, and a new phase will come. Seasons. All of them have their own beauty and importance. 

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Mighty Mouse said:

You ought not be played for a fool all day long...

But you is

Nothing wrong with being a fool.

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Echoes said:

@Leo Gura It's not that I don't see that there are no real alternatives anymore once one fully grasps the significance of self actualization/personal development. I can never go back to the life of playing video games and eating junk food. My concern is with the more "basic" personal development stuff, which I seem to need most at the moment. Like creating a business, learning marketing, understanding how money works, creating a way to make money and all this stuff (maybe pickup, to get this area handled). I focused everything on Enlightenment/Psychology/Philosophy. And even though I need to figure some of this stuff out in my life, I can't find the drive to investigate my time in learning it somehow. Sometimes I think I'm deceiving myself with all this nonduality and the more theoretical stuff in order to avoid "real world" work.

Spirituality needs to be balanced with mastery of the mundane world. Unless your plan is to live in a cave.

Navigating ordinary life requires constant learning and growing. Survival is a tricky business, and it's best when you teach yourself how to do it artfully -- given as how you're here surviving 24/7 until your death.

People who become too mystical, too spiritual without grounding themselves in mundane reality have money problems, relationship problems, housing problems, family problems, etc. That's not how you want to be.

A decent guru will refuse to teach you spirituality until he sees that you have managed to handle ordinary life well. If you cannot pay your bills, what chance do you have at enlightenment? Learn to walk before you fly.

[Socrates]

@Leo Gura @Echoes That's exactly me. Do i just dump the whole non duality pursuit and just focus on basic personal development? Or do i just keep my meditation practice and focus all my attention on my basic needs? How should i navigate this?

[Echoes]

Thank you all 

@Galyna I believe that's what they call "Wu wei". Easier said than done, but I am trying to surrender more and more each day. I tend to overthink spontanious tendencies and come up with all sorts of rationalizations. But then the rationalizations and tensions are part of what reality seems to be doing too...quite paradoxical stuff.

@Samra This reminded me on the quote of Kierkegaard: "Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards". You are right, I have to learn to go more with the flow.

@Leo Gura It is strange though. Being randomly dropped in a situation where we have to struggle for survival without ever having decided to want this. And then having to  figure out a way in which this is best or even "artfully" done. Thats a little bit like a random person from the street who gets spontaniously kidnapped and thrown into a film set and is then asked to act a random role assigned to him. Thats why I seem to be only able to motivate myself at the moment to figure out what this whole thing here is. Just like the person from the street, who would probably ask himself "why did I got kidnapped and have to perform now?" instead of investing all his energy in acting as good as possible.

@Socrates @MisterMan Good to see that there are others struggling with this too. 

 

[Leo Gura]

14 hours ago, Socrates said:

@Leo Gura @Echoes That's exactly me. Do i just dump the whole non duality pursuit and just focus on basic personal development? Or do i just keep my meditation practice and focus all my attention on my basic needs? How should i navigate this?

There's nothing wrong with focusing on getting your life together.

Just keep your meditation practice going. It's not a big weight. Plenty of people manage to run their life and meditate an hour a day.

Kriya yoga, for example, was designed to only take about 1 hour per day. The instruction was: spend 1 hour per day on yoga and enlightenment, and the rest of your day handling your business and family obligations.

You do not need to become an ascetic to become enlightened.

Just do your practices more diligently. Quality > quantity.

I know people who do 2-3 hours per day of yoga and still manage to run a busy life.

A very effective structure is this: 1-2 hours per day of inquiry + four 10-day solo retreats per year. The rest of the time, do whatever business you got.

Another option is: take 3 months off and go balls-to-the-wall with inquiry. 24/7. Get your awakening breakthrough and then return to ordinary life, deepening your realization with 1 hour per day of meditation/yoga.