Moral Reservations About Enlightenment

[StrangerWatch]

22 minutes ago, Shin said:

You see the problem here ?

There’s no problem. This is how a discussion works. If I’m wrong, I’ll be happy to get a correction from Leo.

[Joseph Maynor]

How much experience do you have with Enlightenment work?

[StrangerWatch]

6 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

How much experience do you have with Enlightenment work?

Some, not much. I have the desire to uncover truth, and I understand non-duality intellectually. I meditate daily. Had a couple ego deaths (without psychadelics). Big fan of Alan Watts, Sam Harris and J. Krishnamurti, philosophers who talk about Enlightenment. I’ve watched a bunch of Leo’s videos, along with some other YouTube speakers like Martin Ball and Koi Fresco (all of which are bit out there, but they’re fun). I’ve had several existential panic attacks upon confronting certain truths which non-duality relates to. I don’t use psychadelics, aside from weed which has also kicked me in the nuts spiritually.

[lens]

Quote

Nah, man. All life is not equal, insofar as levels of awareness differ between them. A bug is not worth much more than a plant, which is probably not worth anything compared to a human, based on brain activity. Of course, it would be better if there was no need or compulsion to kill at all, but that’s life. Not my fault — and as I’ve said, I wish it weren’t so. I don’t accept it, and I don’t completely love it.

You don't see the irony in your own argument? By your logic, don't you think the universe probaly thinks something similiar to us? Who knows, maybe that's why people go through horrible shit, in the eyes of the universe we are nothing but little bugs whose worth is not really that worthy, but again, you only get upset when it affects YOU, not others, what you call a "friend, family, another" is what YOU think of them, that's why you get hurt. To claim to want the well being of everything and then to say "nah, man" just shows that your ego is clinging to a belief it claims to be a fact. You said you were looking for truth right? Then come heaven or hell it's up to you to face the facts, not to deny it. Keep questioning.

 

[StrangerWatch]

5 minutes ago, lens said:

You don't see the irony in your own argument? By your logic, don't you think the universe probaly thinks something similiar to us? Who knows, maybe that's why people go through horrible shit, in the eyes of the universe we are nothing but little bugs whose worth is not really that worthy, but again, you only get upset when it affects YOU, not others, what you call a "friend, family, another" is what YOU think of them, that's why you get hurt. To claim to want the well being of everything and then to say "nah, man" just shows that your ego is clinging to a belief it claims to be a fact. You said you were looking for truth right? Then come heaven or hell it's up to you to face the facts, not to deny it. Keep questioning.

 

I merely refuted the claim that all life is equal. You must understand that we agree on this. I condemn the needless suffering of anything that has the capacity to suffer.

[Joseph Maynor]

 

[StrangerWatch]

2 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

According to whom is all life not equal? What's left when all subjective bias is eliminated?

Does the sun go out of its way to explode at a safe distance from earth when the time comes, just because earth is home to intelligent multicellular organisms?

 

Are you saying that's not a subjective bias?

Because value and meaning is measured in the capacity to understand such things. They have inherent value. This capacity can be objectively observed, and our best way to do so thus far is through neuroscience. I’m not saying the universe cares about the well-being of conscious creatures — ergo why I don’t love the universe unconditionally.

[Nahm]

@StrangerWatch That’s not at all what I’m saying.

[lens]

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I merely refuted the claim that all life is equal. You must understand that we agree on this. I condemn the needless suffering of anything that has the capacity to suffer.

No we don't agree, you believe in a scale of importance, I don't. Who is this "I" that condemns the suffering of others? Could be that this "I" is what is giving you worry? I will repeat, you are not witnessing other people suffering, you are witnessing "I" witness itself suffering from the assumption of suffering from others(itself!), go deep into it, arguing with us won't get you unstuck, go do the work

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I’m not saying the universe cares about the well-being of conscious creatures — ergo why I don’t love the universe unconditionally.

Good, you shouldn't love stuff unconditionally, truth is not about love, it's about truth. Being "enlightened" doesn't mean to smile at rape or murder. Are you willing to give up frowning from it to achieve it though?

[Joseph Maynor]

 

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, StrangerWatch said:

Interesting. You’re taking the position of a stoic and saying reality isn’t perfect and ultimately something to be endured. I can respect that. I doubt Leo would think the same.

Morality is not subjective. Our opinions on it may be, just as our opinions on global warming are subjective. The well-being of conscious creatures is measureable at the level of the brain. I know my own suffering is objectively bad, and given my genetic ties to everyone else around I’m inclined to believe their suffering is equally objective.

Reality is perfect. What you’re calling reality is your own illusion in the most literal sense. The “ego” is what “says” otherwise, but the ego is fictitious. In a nutshell, that’s the consciousness work to be done. 

Not sure why you reference what Leo thinks. You may have him on a pedestal. Understandable. Kind of unbelievable how he makes videos to help you and runs a forum to help you, all at no cost to you. Even when people here dump on him in a personal sense, he continues to maintain an interest in helping everyone with their consciousness work. 

Morality is completely subjective. There is no objective anything. All of science, religion, spirituality, etc etc are telling you this. Check out the ‘brains don’t exist video’.  Your own suffering is not objectively bad, or objectively anything. It is being experienced first hand. If you were objective about anything about you, that implies there are two you’s. How many you’s are there? Obviously, One. You can’t use “everyone else” as a reference point. Everyone else is maya, illusionary. 

The way to be free of suffering, is to decipher what perspectives are causing it. Then to learn the truth about the situation. Then to allow what you’ve learned to change your behavior that is causing the suffering. I’m not saying it’s easy at all. That’s the inner work. It’s 100% of the game. Maya would have you believe otherwise, but without the beliefs, all that’s left is the truth. 

It’s a tough one to swallow, but when we become aware we are judging, we start to transcend it. (Your idea of objective morality is actually you projecting your own subjective morality)

Have you tried isolating one or two practices that are designed for specifically what you need and making the time to do them? All of actualized.org serves (imo) solely to convince you to do the inner work. Eventually it is revealed to you that inner is all there is, and you are free of all this. 

[StrangerWatch]

1 hour ago, lens said:

No we don't agree, you believe in a scale of importance, I don't. Who is this "I" that condemns the suffering of others? Could be that this "I" is what is giving you worry? I will repeat, you are not witnessing other people suffering, you are witnessing "I" witness itself suffering from the assumption of suffering from others(itself!), go deep into it, arguing with us won't get you unstuck, go do the work

Good, you shouldn't love stuff unconditionally, truth is not about love, it's about truth. Being "enlightened" doesn't mean to smile at rape or murder. Are you willing to give up frowning from it to achieve it though?

That’s the kind of enlightenment I can get behind. But people who say enlightenment is about loving everything, it seems to me, are completely deluded, or at the very least apathetic towards the very real and unacceptable suffering going on in the universe.

Edited January 31, 2018 by StrangerWatch

[StrangerWatch]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

Your own suffering is not objectively bad, or objectively anything. It is being experienced first hand. If you were objective about anything about you, that implies there are two you’s. How many you’s are there? Obviously, One. You can’t use “everyone else” as a reference point.

You’re confusing what I mean by the word subjective. There are objective facts to said about subjective experience. For example, "that burger tasted pretty good to me". That’s an objective statement about my subjective experience. It doesn’t require an observer of the observed, and it isn’t invalidated by someone else saying "I disagree; you didn’t like that burger". The burger may not be inherently good or bad, but that isn’t the point. This same logic extends to morality: The capacity for creatures to make objective reports about their subjectivity creates a basis for morality in an otherwise meaningless universe.

Edited January 31, 2018 by StrangerWatch

[Max_V]

Watch this video, it will help you realise what is happening and how it gets you stuck. 

@StrangerWatch

[Heart of Space]

Really interesting discussion guys.  I want to add to it really bad, cause I love this stuff.  After skimming I think I agree with @Mighty Mouse, but I'll read and respond to some stuff when I get a moment to be a rascal at work and not actually work.  

[Nahm]

@StrangerWatch I hear what you’re sayin, and I feel I understand, but man, I’m saying a lot of suffering is rooted in the objective thinking, 1st hand, 2nd hand, 3rd hand, etc. There is nothing that could be objective, because there is nothing other than you.  I’m not tryin to argue or anything. My intention is good. (Lol, objective humor there) Rock on man. 

 

[Nahm]

4 hours ago, StrangerWatch said:

That’s the kind of enlightenment I can get behind. But people who say enlightenment is about loving everything, it seems to me, are completely deluded, or at the very least apathetic towards the very real and unacceptable suffering going on in the universe.

Sometimes thinking prevents us from being aware of what is already so obvious to our deepest core. Only one way to experience the truth though! I hope you do one day, I really do. ❤️ IMO, it’s worth every bit of the intense dedication and discipline it takes to experience. There’s no supplement for self inquiry. 

[Nahm]

This is a great post. Doesn’t it, like all the other derailments, boil down to experiencing for one’s self? If someone experienced it, they would no longer have axes to grind. Isn’t that obvious? Logic and making it to age 25, maybe 30, should be enough experience to see that for someone who has never even heard of or considered personal development. Haven’t we all experienced that the problem we have with others, or with the world, always turns out to be our own issue, that we hold against our ‘self’, that we were projecting? If you yourself have directly experienced that there is only you, it would no longer be so murky. 

Obviously, self deception is the root of all suffering, so without self deception, there would be no suffering. 

[Faceless]

What is the root of self deception ?

[StrangerWatch]

4 hours ago, Mighty Mouse said:

You still run into trouble because the subjective well being of different parties inevitably create conflicts of interest. Precisely because it is NOT objective. The very fact that this is already pretty much how people function by default, and the results of that you see in the world, should tell you that it's not any kind of solution, much less any kind of truth.

The counter-argument here is simple: People are egotistical, not moral, when they fight for their right to well-being over others. The outcome where the most amount of individuals experience the most amount of well-being is the most moral, objectively.

4 hours ago, Mighty Mouse said:

For example one obvious problem I found with Sam Harris when I saw his TED talk about it (however long ago that was), is that it basically implies that there is no moral objection to imprisoning a conscious being in a simulated prison, even without their knowledge, as long as it improves the reports of their subjective well being.

This would mean that the machines in The Matrix movies were morally justified in their actions. Cypher went by his subjective well-being when he chose the Matrix over the dark, scorched earth that humans created in their attempt to subjugate the machines. Machines even made every effort to make it a much more likable matrix, but they said it worked counter-productively and "entire crops were lost" because of it. So they had to invent a mechanism that would keep the population as content as possible, and eliminate the buildup of error over time by periodically hitting the reset button.

Glad to meet another Matrix fan. The simulated prison thought experiment is a common argument I hear, and all it does is over-simplify the definition of "well-being" into instant gratification. For starters, the simulation closes off a bunch of experiences which generate well-being; relationships and truth, for example — possibly two of the greatest sources of human well-being — would be neglected in such a simulation. You mention how some greater forms of well-being are neglected by instant gratification. How does that prove that well-being is not the focal point of morality? Just because I view well-being as the center of morality, doesn’t mean I reject any sort of nuance.

As for Cypher, his actions were entirely of an egotistical nature. He doomed his comrades by backstabbing them just so he could live peacefully in the Matrix. A moral hedonist considers the experience of all, not just their own. They would see that liberating humanity from the eternal cycle of the machines would ultimately be a greater source of well-being than the mundane Matrix lives that most people lead. Freedom, as it turns out, is another essential source of human well-being.

Edited January 31, 2018 by StrangerWatch