Moral Reservations About Enlightenment

[StrangerWatch]

I understand the value of enlightenment, for the most part. All IS one, "forms" are a product of "the whole", everything came OUT OF being and not INTO being. Enlightenment entails an intuitive understanding of this. I get it, and I’ve had a few direct glimpses of this as well.

 

My moral ego, you could say, is protesting all-the-while. The ultimate message of mysticism and spirituality seems to be: Everything is fine just the way it is, and the only TRUE problem lies in your perspective of whatever is. This becomes a problem, when you consider this:

 

The universe is riddled with constant suffering across all of time. Evolution, the process by which we humans evolved, entails building new experiences upon heaps and loads of unacceptable suffering. Everywhere you turn there is suffering, and a lot of it unavoidable. Add multiverse theory into this, and suffering increases ad infinitum. I can’t accept that existence is like this.

 

Ultimately, I have reached the conclusion that I wish nothing existed. Enlightenment entails loving the whole and not the form. Well, I say fuck you, some forms are better than others and the whole should fucking die because of it. How d’ya like that, mystics?

 

In all seriousness, I would love to hear some voices here respond to my concerns.

[Shin]

Jesus, The Buddah, Eckhart Tolle, Gandhi, Leo ...

Oh the irony ...

Edited January 30, 2018 by Shin

[Faceless]

@StrangerWatch

Just stop thinking about enlightenment friend. This isn’t about becoming. It’s about the freedom from becoming. ??‍♂️

Edited January 30, 2018 by Faceless

[lens]

The ego will want to live no matter what, it will rather suffer from the suffering of others than to let itself die. Keep doing the work and find the answers for yourself

Quote

Ultimately, I have reached the conclusion that I wish nothing existed

And it doesn't, have you realized that yet?

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, StrangerWatch said:

I wish nothing existed

That is the case, LOL.

[Nahm]

@StrangerWatch It sounds subtle, it’s not. The concept is  ‘everything is you’. But the experience is ‘you, are everything’. It’s not a subtle difference, it’s earth shattering. 

There’s no difference between the attitude, ‘fuck all’, and ‘fuck me’. Do you not experience your own perceptions? Of course. Do you not see your perception in all the world? Of course. This is where self deception comes in. To think ill of the world, to miss the call for your love, is the same as negative self talk, and defeat. Both are very temporary. So don’t procrastinate. Start responding to suffering with love. Start with self. Truth does set you free, freeing yourself reveals the truth. The symbiosis could not be more perfect. Honesty could never be overrated. The illusion is a facade of self deception. 

We don’t all see one reality and form opinions. We each hold to what we are, and that is the reality we see. Fear is illusion. I think (provocative I know) you have completely underestimated the work. 

[StrangerWatch]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That is the case, LOL.

Let me ask you, @Leo Gura: Is there a difference between an existence full of suffering and an existence full of bliss? Are both equally good/bad because they are truly nothing, as you so claim?

[Faceless]

3 minutes ago, StrangerWatch said:

Let me ask you, @Leo Gura: Is there a difference between an existence full of suffering and an existence full of bliss? Are both equally good/bad because they are truly nothing, as you so claim?

What do you mean when you use this word bliss? 

[StrangerWatch]

@Faceless By "bliss", I refer to good/enjoyable subjective experience — the opposite of suffering.

[Faceless]

25 minutes ago, StrangerWatch said:

@Faceless By "bliss", I refer to good/enjoyable subjective experience — the opposite of suffering.

Although the words good and joy are in essences distinct from thought altogether I have a feeling you mean pleasure and pain. 

If I am correct in assuming so, it seems obvious that any movement within thought is relative. Without pain and suffering there would be no pleasure. Because we suffer we attach through desire to various pleasures. The longing of pleasure is a movement to self sooth the psyche. Pleasure and pain are actually one in the same. One is born of the other. A pattern of thought. A perpetual movement from one to another. The movment of becoming. 

Am I with you here or have I misunderstood? 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Faceless

[StrangerWatch]

40 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Although the words good and joy are in essences distinct from thought altogether I have a feeling you mean pleasure and pain. 

If I am correct in assuming so, it seems obvious that any movement within thought is relative. Without pain and suffering there would be no pleasure. Because we suffer we attach through desire to various pleasures. The longing of pleasure is a movement to self sooth the psyche. Pleasure and pain are actually one in the same. One is born of the other. A pattern of thought. A perpetual movement from one to another. The movment of becoming. 

Am I with you here or have I misunderstood? 

I suppose. It is my belief that the absence of pain is more important than the presence of pleasure, so the relativity argument doesn’t mean much to me.

[Faceless]

No argument here friend. It’s simple if you observe. Pleasure is born of pain. And then in that pleasure comes the mechanical pattern through thought to recapture that pleasure over and over again. This creates fear that that that pleasure will not be experienced again and when it isn’t there is then further pain. 

Pain and pleasure are two sides of the same coin. Only thought creates this separation and distinction.

i hope you see this duddy?

[StrangerWatch]

38 minutes ago, Faceless said:

No argument here friend. It’s simple if you observe. Pleasure is born of pain. And then in that pleasure comes the mechanical pattern through thought to recapture that pleasure over and over again. This creates fear that that that pleasure will not be experienced again and when it isn’t there is then further pain. 

Pain and pleasure are two sides of the same coin. Only thought creates this separation and distinction.

i hope you see this duddy?

So the holocaust, for example, being bad is just a matter of opinion? It wasn’t objectively bad?

[Shin]

What makes you think the holocaust ever happened ?

[Faceless]

@StrangerWatch

Only in thought does one play the game of opinion my friend. 

The question would be from what basis do you identify with these morals in which you are so obviously promoting. Is this viewpoint a manifestation of conditioning according to tradition and so on? 

Instead of coming to the conclusion in regards to your own conditioning whether an event was good or bad why don’t you see what the root of the problem was what instigated that whole conflict. Don’t you see this pattern of pain and pleasure playing a significant part in that division and conflict? 

Do you see that morality accepted by tradition, culture, and any type of psychological authority is actually in its self immoral? 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Faceless

[Key Elements]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That is the case, LOL.

 

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

But the experience is ‘you, are everything’.

You know, it's interesting that it all boils down to this answer all the time. Everything has already been said and done. We are everything already. We are at peace no matter what. The result/conclusion/answer is already this. What it appears to be is, we "rode something backwards" in "time phenomenon" and we are in this "earth phenomenon" as "separate entities/ego" having only an experience -- wishing that everything returned back to "normal" into "everythingness/peace." Well, so far, from what I know, we do have a choice. We are living in a world of abundance. We already talked about "karma." How are you going to impact the "everythingness" that you are living in right now? How are you going to impact others? This may take you into the direction/experience that you want to go.

[StrangerWatch]

1 hour ago, Faceless said:

@StrangerWatch

Only in thought does one play the game of opinion my friend. 

The question would be from what basis do you identify with these morals in which you are so obviously promoting. Is this viewpoint a manifestation of conditioning according to tradition and so on? 

Instead of coming to the conclusion in regards to your own conditioning whether an event was good or bad why don’t you see what the root of the problem was what instigated that whole conflict. Don’t you see this pattern of pain and pleasure playing a significant part in that division and conflict? 

Do you see that morality accepted by tradition, culture, and any type of psychological authority is actually in its self immoral? 

 

 

 

I base my morals around the measurement of well-being. I’m a classical hedonist, culture be damned. Holocaust was objectively bad according to these standards.

[StrangerWatch]

1 hour ago, Shin said:

What makes you think the holocaust ever happened ?

Solipsism is bullshit. It might appear to make sense through inductive reasoning, but by definition it’s a bogus position to have in a philosophical debate.

[Faceless]

Lol 

As I said you seek pleasure because you suffer. The more you seek pleasure the more you will suffer?‍♀️

If it’s fun be my guest ?

[StrangerWatch]

15 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Lol 

As I said you seek pleasure because you suffer. The more you seek pleasure the more you will suffer?‍♀️

If it’s fun be my guest ?

I don’t suffer all that much, so nah. I’m thinking about the world at large.