"Believing in a physical world blocks enlightenment"

[zedprotect]

In his live video about his enlightenemnt experience, Leo said that believing in a physical world is the reason people don't get enlightened. Somehow, this sentence had an effect on me for the past few days. I strongly believe that he's got something important here, and that we should stop and ponder about it. I think I resonated quite a bit with that since it's a topic I've been questionning a bit for the past few months. 

One of the times I wondered about this topic was coming from one of Loch Kelly's practices which ask you to become "spacious awareness". I had trouble doing that, as I viewed consciousness located in my head, which let me feel that I was fooling myself when I tried to "expand" this awareness. This made me think about space, and how it could totally be a mental construction. I remember thinking that everything could be happening in "one point" (or in no space at all), and that our sense of space and location is just an effect of how our minds are interpreting sensations. 

I then remembered that one year ago, I used to have experiences of "delocalisation" with sounds. I can remember hearing sounds and thinking to myself "this is as if the sound is hearing itself, directly where it happens". I knew that it was a step towards non duality, but still, my belief of a physical world made me think that a nondual consciousness could just be and alteration from the brain (and a good one). But at the end, my "logic" or "common sense" prevented me to fully accept what I was experiencing. 

But if I'm writing here, it's mostly to share a video of Rupert Spira that I found in a totally random way today, without even looking for this subject. He's having a conversation with a guy with a scientific background on this very topic, and he has a really interesting way of talking about it. I don't know how to integrate videos, so here is the link : An argument about materialism

[Nahm]

@zedprotect I tend to agree with you. You are going in the right direction imo. This is a great place to be, to continue to uncover these type of things. Have you by chance watched the double slit video on YouTube? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1YqgPAtzho

These exercises are right in the wheelhouse of what you mentioned. https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/7587-list-of-enlightenment-exercises/

 

Abraham Hicks (YouTube) is a great teacher of relativity. It’s a love or hate flavor of delivery. Worth seeing if it resonates with you or not.

Googling Truth, and then the words in it’s definition and so on, and son, is eye opening and helpful. 

Making 2 lists; belief and experience; And writing each major event in your life into one of the two lists is helpful. A lot of what goes in the experience column, when seen visually and honestly, gets moved to the belief column...eye opening too. It draws a deeper authenticity out, and it’s liberating.

A distinction that came to mind when I read your post, is that our own thinking, the actual thoughts if you will, are of the ‘physical world’. Meditation, not believing our own thoughts, finding the space inbetween thoughts and it expanding, state of no thought, all helpful to become aware of. 

Choose what feels right for you, and for others. That works the best. ❤️ Have fun man.

[SOUL]

If someone believes that believing in a physical world blocks enlightenment, it does for them, it's a self fulfilling belief.

[molosku]

Not believing in a physical physical world only opens a door to another belief. No belief will ever deliver the truth for you. You can believe in things if you want only AFTER you get enlightened, as you can ponder your experience, but before then, throw away all your beliefs.

But Im not saying its bad to contemplate things. Theres subtlety here.

[Zephyr]

@molosku

Exactly. What difference does it make to believe or unbelieve 'physical world' 

[Nahm]

@molosku Curious, what might be an example of the ‘other belief’ this opens the door to? Thanks

[zedprotect]

@Nahm I've studied the double slit experience in university. But better than university, if you're interested in this subject, I strongly recommend a book called "The Quantum Enigma". It let's you understand a lot of the core stuff on quantum mechanics, without using mathematics. The aim of the book is to give you enough information so that you can shift your paradigms about reality, without having to rely on famous scientists own interpretations to develop a metaphysic view on the subject.

I tried to listen to Abraham Hicks, but I wasn't interested and didn't want to push for it.

I have to admit I'm too lazy to do your list and googling exercises, but thanks for it. It reminded me that I want, one day, to write definitions in a notebook, as Leo advised in one of his last videos.

@SOUL I don't really know if this belief blocks enlightenment, but it has been my experience that noticing this belief as a belief had some effect on my consciousness. And to really see it as a belief, it helped a lot to hear about another point of view that seems believable. In the past few days, it has made my experience smoother than usual. I'll have to investigate this more to conclude if it's really beneficial in the long run or not.

@molosku Exactly ! Though I think it can be useful sometime to allow (for a short period of time) new beliefs that are opposite to the ones you're used to. It can help to counteract them. After that, my grasp on them lessens. I wouldn't say that I've totally dropped them (they're dropped intellectually, but not "intuitively"). On this subject, I was quite inspired by Leo's videos on paradigms and on default positions.

If some of you like Rupert Spira video, he has a lot more on this subject (search for "Rupert Spira matter" on youtube).

[Heart of Space]

Believing in any narrative about reality is not enlightenment.  Whether or not you think its fake, real, physical, a dream, a hologram, or whatever.  Reality isn't anything.  It just is.  

[zedprotect]

@Heart of Space Sorry, but who are you talking to, and why are you saying that ?  I don't understand the relevance of your comment. 

[Heart of Space]

1 minute ago, zedprotect said:

@Heart of Space Sorry, but who are you talking to, and why are you saying that ?  I don't understand the relevance of your comment. 

You.  Just read this guys post.  He said it well:

On 1/29/2018 at 4:40 AM, molosku said:

Not believing in a physical physical world only opens a door to another belief. No belief will ever deliver the truth for you. You can believe in things if you want only AFTER you get enlightened, as you can ponder your experience, but before then, throw away all your beliefs.

But Im not saying its bad to contemplate things. Theres subtlety here.

 

[zedprotect]

To be honest, I didn't really see the relevance of his post as well even though I reacted positively to the content of his message. The both of you seem to understand something from my post that I don't see. Could you briefly reformulate what you understood from me that led you to this comment ? I feel that I've been misunderstood, but maybe there's something to learn here. 

[SOUL]

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

Reality isn't anything.

 

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

Believing in any narrative about reality is not enlightenment.

 

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

 It just is.

Do you see it?

[Heart of Space]

1 hour ago, zedprotect said:

To be honest, I didn't really see the relevance of his post as well even though I reacted positively to the content of his message. The both of you seem to understand something from my post that I don't see. Could you briefly reformulate what you understood from me that led you to this comment ? I feel that I've been misunderstood, but maybe there's something to learn here. 

Oh well, I guess all I was trying to put across is that it's not just a belief in the physicality of the world that "blocks enlightenment" as you say.  Any narrative about reality has the same effect.  So, I was just trying to mention that just so you are aware of that.  It is correct to say that the belief in the physicality of the universe is false, but the mistake is to take that information and simply alter your narrative or belief about reality rather than seeing reality as it is.  Is-ness is the only way to enlightenment.  All this intellectual philosophizing and contemplating about reality is fun, but understand narrative for what it is.  Does that make more sense?  

Quote

Did you see it?

Enlightenment?  Yes.  @SOUL

Edited January 31, 2018 by Heart of Space

[SOUL]

21 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Any narrative about reality has the same effect.

 

21 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

 It is correct to say that the belief in the physicality of the universe is false

 

22 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

the mistake is

 

22 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

is the only way to enlightenment

 

23 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Yes.

Well, apparently you aren't aware of it, limiting beliefs are hidden in plain sight.

[Heart of Space]

6 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Well, apparently you aren't aware of it, limiting beliefs are hidden in plain sight.

Those are words on a screen.  I was only trying to help.  If you disagree, or see some sort of flaw in what I'm saying that's fine, friend.  

@zedprotect  Take what I say for what it is.  Hope I was helpful in some way at least.  

[SOUL]

4 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Those are words on a screen.  I was only trying to help.  If you disagree, or see some sort of flaw in what I'm saying that's fine, friend.

Whether I agree or not, flaws or whatever it doesn't matter, those aren't my words, they are yours.

So be it.

[Faceless]

The Desire to become desireless is still desire therefore not desirelessness. Lolol

[Heart of Space]

11 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Whether I agree or not, flaws or whatever it doesn't matter, those aren't my words, they are yours.

So be it.

True they are what we call words, but that's all they are.  Now point the beliefs that are in my subjective experience.  Can you?  Rhetorical question.  The answer is no because you don't know my reality.  

Could I be full of shit as you seem to think?  The answer is yes because everyone has the potential to be full of shit.  Whether or not you see me as full of shit, or actually giving an intelligible thing to say is up to your interpretation.  

You see me as full of shit, and contradicting myself, because that's how you interpret the words on your screen next to my name.  That's fine.  You've received nothing of value from me and that's ok.  Hopefully the OP got something of value, but if he too thinks I'm full of shit that's ok too.  Good day, m'lord.  

 

[Heart of Space]

8 minutes ago, Faceless said:

The Desire to become desireless is still desire therefore not desirelessness. Lolol

A limitation on words, not your ability to actually be and live your life.  It's important not to confuse the two.  Kisses and hugs! 

[Faceless]

19 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

A limitation on words, not your ability to actually be and live your life.  It's important not to confuse the two.  Kisses and hugs! 

 Hmm?? ? 

 ✂️ it out lol u rascal lol ?