Power of Science

[Thanatos13]

Despite what Leo wants to believe, I think that science is the best tool we have at our disposal for discovering the truth of reality (not meditation, which has mixed results overall). 

[Thanatos13]

17 minutes ago, John Lula said:

@Thanatos13

Ok, that's what you believe. Might be true. In my experience I think that by verbalising the Truth to other people, everyone will interpret that truth differently, whether it is through philosophy of science or mysticism. Let's say that science do discover whats true, so that they can write it simply in 3 words (e.g., everything is nothing). How does this change the view on your life? Have you instantaneously shed the murk of ego in a minute? Do you understand truth deeply? One thing is to read what other people have investigated as Truth, then lean back in a chair knowing that you can simply rely on science to feed you the truth. A completely different thing is to discover it for yourself at a gut level, and to integrate it into your life. I think though ( not sure) Leo is leaning more towards implementing truth as a means of discovering who and what he is -- On a daily basis.

Not to argue that science is bad, it is definitely a great tool!

Actually gut level isn’t a reliable source of truth, that is a myth. Science also recognizes approximate knowledge, not certain (the opposite of spirituality).

Leo isn’t someone to listen to in regards to truth. He only appears intelligence in the bubbles he’s created on YouTube and this forum.

[Dayo]

Using one tool to understand reality is absurd. We have so many fields of study in the world, so declaring that using only science to understand the world is absurd. Science has its limitations and blind spots like every other field of study. It is absurd to treat science like it is a holy grail to truth. If you have this close minded thinking, just forget about going far in self actualization.

[Thanatos13]

From personal experience, spirituality let me down time and again. It said to question everything except what it was teaching. When I tried multiple times and had no success rather than place the fault in the claims it made it said there is something wrong with me. 

Science is at least honest when it says it doesn’t know and that the knowledge it has is provisional. Spirituality claims certainty and when pressed as to how and why it hides behind “ego” and “mind” and nonduality (which is a contradictory word). 

[Thanatos13]

Just now, Dayo said:

Using one tool to understand reality is absurd. We have so many fields of study in the world, so declaring that using only science to understand the world is absurd. Science has its limitations and blind spots like every other field of study. It is absurd to treat science like it is a holy grail to truth. If you have this close minded thinking, just forget about going far in self actualization.

You do realize that self actualization isn’t actually real right? There are many fields of study yes, but few have the success that science shares. It also questions EVERYTHING, which is something spiritual mystics don’t like (they hide behind the label of ego when pressed about their claims to knowledge). In my studies it has been the most honest. It doesn’t claim certainty and is open to views given supporting evidence. 

I know people confuse proof and science a lot, it’s a common mistake. Proof is in math, not science. When you attack the claim about requiring evidence then you essentially state that “every claim is valid”. Without the requirement for evidence when making claims, literally anything can be said as truth (which in turn means nothing is true). 

Not to mention nothing deals a greater blow to your ego or sense of importance than science. 

[Thanatos13]

In fact a good deal of spirituality can be boiled down to brain activity. 

Too much emphasis is placed on personal experience in spirit, especially when the same phenomenon has been reported across cultures (but filtered differently according to culture). 

It appears that people who dislike science are scared of it. Or you can just follow Pyrrho and “suspend judgment on nonevident matters”.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Thanatos13
Adding a few points

[Dayo]

I like Science. You assert that believes Science has no flaws.  You also assert that because I said science has flaws that means I am close minded to science. This is absurd. For someone who believes science is the only tool for understanding the world, you have poor reasoning skills. If self actualization is not real what are you doing here. It is a waste of to be on this forum them. You are really close minded. If you only have one tool in your tool bag, it is a shitty bag. 

[Faceless]

As long as everyone knows “truth” is independent of thought then we see that thought has its right place. To see the limits of thought makes for a true line of thought to investigate, inquire, and do various types of research. To see that all thought is based on conditions and truth is not is key...With a capacity to think orderly prevents deception, illusion, delusion. To see that thought is selective is a necessity. 

A scientific mind is absolutely necessary. And an understanding of the psychological entity “the me” which is thought paired with rational, logical, reasonable, thought makes for one who has a capacity to be objective in any observbation, investigation, and inquiry. 

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Faceless

[Nahm]

@Thanatos13 Science can’t reveal the truth. You have to consider that the truth, what you actually are, is different, ‘bigger’, and completely tracendent to anything that could be measured in inches or years. Quantum physics is useful for taking a mind from a tight science (atomic) paradigm, to an open mind - Schrodinger’s cat, superposition, entanglement. Science is useful, but science is not YOU. The real answers will not come from your illusion. The nature of illusion is to convince you that something is happening, which is not actually happening. That is the nature of science. You are beyond science. This could become obvious just by considering that all of the science you are perceiving / learning - that You are what’s perceiving it, You are what’s learning it.

[Thanatos13]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Thanatos13 Science can’t reveal the truth. You have to consider that the truth, what you actually are, is different, ‘bigger’, and completely tracendent to anything that could be measured in inches or years. Quantum physics is useful for taking a mind from a tight science (atomic) paradigm, to an open mind - Schrodinger’s cat, superposition, entanglement. Science is useful, but science is not YOU. The real answers will not come from your illusion. The nature of illusion is to convince you that something is happening, which is not actually happening. That is the nature of science. You are beyond science. This could become obvious just by considering that all of the science you are perceiving / learning - that You are what’s perceiving it, You are what’s learning it.

That’s the most blatantly false statement I have read thus far. From what I have seen, humans really aren’t beyond science. Belief otherwise is just ego, the need to feel special even though the evidence to the contrary is pretty vast. 

You are also misusing the word illusion, for science has shown us that our brains “hallucinate” the reality around us. What we see and experience is just the result of what our senses build, but it’s not what’s actually happening.

Please don’t gas on about quantum physics, everyone thinks that it gives a license for spirituality to put its foot in when it’s actuallt much more complex than you think. What applies at the micro level in quantum physics is much different from the macro level, and that’s a fundamental mistake when people cite it. 

Lets not forget that spiritual experiences can be explained by neuroscience. Just because the experience itself is powerful doesn’t mean it means anything (which is a trick of the mind). 

I just find it funny that people don’t question the “truths” gained from meditation or spirituality. Guess that’s why it never stuck to me. The more I questioned it the more I saw that it boiled down to “because I say so”.

[Nahm]

@Thanatos13 Well yeah! Of course. Just sit, be silent, and know that you are God. ❤️

[Ben Landrail]

@Thanatos13  I like your line of thinking, at least you have a coherent way of presenting arguments that actually make sense. I'd be interested to hear your opinion about the alternatives to spirituality that actually help us live a life in a meaningless universe. Since science is concerned with creating models and analysing phenomenons, what do you turn to when you have to make existential decisions? What's your approach?

[Thanatos13]

8 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Thanatos13 Well yeah! Of course. Just sit, be silent, and know that you are God. ❤️

That’s not true. I am not god, there is no god. That’s the most conceited and egoic statement I have heard.

[Nahm]

@Thanatos13 Of course it is, TO YOU! ? Do the work. Lol 

[Thanatos13]

Just now, Nahm said:

@Thanatos13 Of course it is, TO YOU! ? Do the work. Lol 

There is no work. That is merely a belief you like to hold, with no grounding. It seems like a comfort give the vast uncertainty we swim in. 

 

6 minutes ago, Ben Landrail said:

@Thanatos13  I like your line of thinking, at least you have a coherent way of presenting arguments that actually make sense. I'd be interested to hear your opinion about the alternatives to spirituality that actually help us live a life in a meaningless universe. Since science is concerned with creating models and analysing phenomenons, what do you turn to when you have to make existential decisions? What's your approach?

In my life I find spirituality is a naive approach that is not entirely different from the religion it seeks to criticize. Both try to force meaning onto a canvas with nothing on it, only the paint slides down and must be reapplied.

I read many views to see what I should do, but then I think “why should I do anything”? There isn’t a prize or really anything waiting for me besides death. Being in nature I see a cycle of violence and pain that repeats, but no real reason behind it. Nature, earth, the universe. They simply exist. Things break and reform. A cycle that repeats with no real purpose.

I think to survive the realization that we live on a void we choose to believe certain things, and pursue personal projects. Anything to avoid the realization that it is really all just a machine that churns onward, each bit of reality a cog. Deep down I think people are scared, scared of feeling insignificant . When science tells us this we try to retreat to things that appear to be “beyond science”. I always wondered why people were quick to criticize it. 

So in regards to the existential, I don’t have any satisfactory answer. I guess it’s just “believe what you want”. 

[Nahm]

@Thanatos13 It is deliciously comforting. ☺️ Like mom’s apple pie. 

[Ian]

I agree with OP that science is the best tool to discover the truth of reality. Its biggest problem as far as your own life is concerned, however, is that it could take centuries before another big paradigm breakthrough that comes nearer to explaining the truths explored in the spiritual communities. Therefore, it seems sensible to undertake your own journey of truth seeking, rather than hoping that somebody else will work it out for you!

 

Ian's pet theories (nothing said past here is anything but wild speculation):

 

My current pet theory is some sort of combination of quantum mechanics and string theory. The universe itself is fundamentally nothingness/awareness/membrane, in which there is the potential to create infinite energy. As far as I'm aware, this energy is either light or matter, with the relevant formulae being E=hf and E=mc^2. You are an aspect of the infinite light (the soul?), contained within a body of matter.

In order to increase your energy, you would have to increase your vibrational frequency. This is why you often hear things like "raise your vibration" within certain spritual teachings. Why the light of the universe should want to increase its energy, I do not know, but it seems like higher energy is perceived by the body to be 'positive': it brings joy, gratitude, peace and love etc. As for how energy is created, I have no idea. I've heard that Nikola Tesla supposedly unlocked the secrets to unlimited, free energy, but I do not know this for a fact. Given the first law of thermodynamics, this would imply that the universe is not an isolated system, or that the law is simply wrong.

In quantum mechanics you learn that not all energies are accessible, and that waveforms can only take on certain discrete energy levels. This could explain why progress is usually long plateaus and then sudden 'aha' moments, as your energy leaps up to the next level.

According to M-theory, the universe is made up of 11 dimensions (other theories have slightly different numbers). I can't pretend to know much about this, but you can find sources that talk about the fifth dimension being that of Christ or Buddha consciousness, the sixth and seventh being Melchizedek consciousness, and the ninth being Metatron consciousness. In the absence of scientific understanding, it makes sense that humans would do their best to fill the gaps with spiritual understandings.

And in fact, it is my understanding that the Earth is currently undergoing a transformation from 3D/4D to 5D. But that's another story...

 

It is a fallacy to suggest that 'everyone is right', but in my experience, it's rare that any major school of thought or truth is 100% false. I always seek to integrate different understandings together to form a cohesive whole.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Ian

[Faceless]

I agree Science is important but how can that which is limited by thought grasp the whole of truth?? Truth is independent of thought. 

Truth is whole but once thought enters in that truth becomes fragmented and cut into pieces. Partial. Limited by the very nature of thought itself.  

Have you gone into this? It’s quite important?

 

[Joseph Maynor]

I love Science.  But it took me many years to have a meta view of Science.  You need that too.  Otherwise it's tempting to think that Science just is the best knowledge, which is too narrow-minded.

My favorite area of Science:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_physics

Edited January 28, 2018 by Joseph Maynor