Can Severely Autistic People Become Enlightened?

[AlldayLoop]

Title says it all. Can they experience enlightenment? Can they become enlightened? 

[Faceless]

@Outer

Lololo 

??‍♂️

[Faceless]

It’s not about the the accumulation and response capacity of the program it’s about having the capacity to view the entirety of the program and it’s limits. It’s about the capacity to perceive the whole of thought. Which thought itself can never achieve. 

Wisdom does not come by cultivation of thought. 

[Heart of Space]

Prerequisites for enlightenment:

1)  Have consciousness 

2)  That's it

[Heart of Space]

Just now, Outer said:

There might be levels of consciousness which are correlated with intelligence. I read that in a neuroscience book about intelligence. Someone with a high intelligence might be more conscious than someone who has a very low.

If there is no separation of an individual self and the world you are enlightened.  Cows are enlightened.  Lizards are enlightened.  The most mentally handicapped person in the world can be enlightened as long as they have consciousness.  

The problem is that you're conflating states of the human mind with 'higher' or 'lower' consciousness.  This has almost nothing to do with enlightenment.  Ironically, it's our modern sense of intellect that moves us more into the illusion of being separate from our world.  

[mandyjw]

Fascinating question. I really believe that the "cure" for autism may be mindfulness practice, but how you convince someone to try it when they are so tortured by their thoughts I don't know. It would have to be taught so that it was spoken in their own language, if that makes sense.

My 5 year old son has mild autism so I expect to learn a lot more about this in the future. In his case he has an incredible ability to focus and great fine motor skills, but will not connect and make eye contact with other people. I don't know if he has less mindfulness than a typically developing child, or if it presents in different ways.

 

 

[Heart of Space]

8 minutes ago, Outer said:

I don't think you're making it very clear and not using words for different things. Separation from the world can be low nature relatedness.

I think definition of enlightenment should be knowing truth and no longer need to know truth. While nondual states and so on can be something else or in its own category of experience. When it comes to higher consciousness I just mean literally being more awake or not, akin to being more asleep or not, on a spectrum.

So, your definition of enlightenment is 'knowing truth?'  So, what is truth?  Is it not that your ego creates an illusion of separation from the world?  That's always been a major facet of every school of spirituality I've studied.  Then again, I won't pretend like I know everything, because I definitely do not.  What's your specific definition of enlightenment, or awakening?  How do 'you' use the word?  

Isn't being 'more awake' as you say simply just seeing reality as it is to a higher degree than you did previously?  As in ultimately seeing more of the one-ness of reality?  This does not require the type of intellect that IQ measures my friend.  

I could see how, once you have been conditioned into illusion, that intelligence could aid you greatly in your ability to effectively uncondition yourself out of illusion.  But ultimately, intelligence is not a prerequisite.  

Edited January 26, 2018 by Heart of Space

[Faceless]

There can be no freedom from thought “the self” through the acquisition of thought. Thought can not transcend it’s own limits, though it tries to..Only the action of perception/truth can capture the whole. 

If you go deep enough this will become clear?

[AlwaysBeNice]

I haven't met a lot of people over the years but the ones that were autistic seemed more kind, intelligent/rational and open than the average person, yet often still quite hurt from their upbringing, more so than the average person.

Perhaps normal people are more autistic than autistic people in some way, I'd say they would do quite well.

[Heart of Space]

Just now, Outer said:

That's not it.

You just said it, knowing truth, and I will add to that no longer need to seek truth because it's known, obviously

Sure, I agree

Maybe, I don't know. It was just speculation. Let the neuroscientists figure it out.

But, just saying 'knowing truth' as your definition is too vague.  What is truth?  Is it not what I've been talking about this whole time?  Then you say you agree with my definition of awakening, which is seeing reality as it is, as in lack of separation of ego and world.  Again, if you truly understand what this means you would know that intellect is not necessary for this and is in fact actually one of the primary culprits for why you have to start enlightenment work in the first place to uncondition your mind.  Like I said previously, I think that intellect could help with your ability to more effectively uncondition the mind, but it is not a prerequisite.  

 

[Heart of Space]

Just now, Outer said:

Those are just small truths by my definiton, similar to the sky is blue, there are trees, mountains, the earth is a sphere or round or whatever.

IQ is a measurement of the general cognitive capability of the brain. The brain does all the work and the ego takes credit. Some brains work more efficiently and better than others.

So, I take it you disagree with Leo and the majority of major spiritual teacher's on their idea of what enlightenment is?  I'm not chastising you, I'm genuinely asking.  

Correct, it is.  No doubt, some brains definitely have a higher processing power, that's very true.  Still, you haven't explained what your definition of truth is and then how this higher processing power is somehow necessary to get to that truth.  

[Monkey-man]

Autism is not about lack of intelligence. They can be very intelligent, its about inability to communicate. On the other side of spectrum we have schizophrenia which is about being all over the place.  Depends on the severity, most of autistic people can be treated. I know one enlightened neuroscientist who claims that he treats them (and also other kind of disorders) through being aware of being aware techniques. Also he talks to them at ease without relating to their names, past stories and their personas as if they are not a person and as if they are not his patients and not sick at all. So once they are in awareness of presence they forget their autistic self-image and suddenly transform and open up. I guess its a long process overall coz once therapy session finish and parents come back for them they put on their autistic mask again. I think its really mind-boggling discovery that he told. It tells a lot about problems of identification with self-image and dualistic perception of 'me vs world'. However most of psychotherapists usually feed them with bunch of pills instead. So I assume they can similarly become enlightened (also remember full-circle thing - become so deep in your head that distinction between inner and outer falls).

I did similar experiment with my very shy nieces, they are not autistic but couple of very shy and introverted kids of age 8 and they don't talk much with anyone except with their parents, so whoever tries to hear some verbal communication from them usually ends up with nonverbal or 'yes and no'. So one day while they were playing with their gadgets as usual, I just started talking with them (while doing my own things) without referring to their personas, names and to any other kind of referrals. I also didn't differentiate between myself and them so I didn't imply any kind of boundaries and past stories during conversation. I didn't force them to talk, didn't imply that I expect them to answer, didn't ask to recall anything or to do anything at all. And the most important thing is that I didn't remind them about their personality and about how shy they are (which is often done by all other relatives who try to talk to them). I just started talking to them about some kids staff, so during next 2-3 hours they became super-open, spontaneous, energetic, noisy, they started to talk a lot, dance, play, make jokes, laugh etc. Also before and in the midst of experiment I talked with them with referring to their names, personas, past stories, my own persona, setting up boundaries and distinctions between us, once I did this they were gradually closing up again, becoming shy and self-conscious again turning attention to their gadgets. Simply, its about recalling your self-image and trying to fin into your role vs forgetting self-image and just being no one.

So the moral of the story is in what that enlightened neuroscientist said about importance of unconditionality in childhood. During our childhood we often hear that there's something wrong with us in different ways and fed with apple from tree of knowledge of good and evil. These apples are distinctions of me vs world and 'things that wrong about me vs 'things that aren't wrong about me' and they gradually form our self-image. So then we just play our self-image role during adulthood coz we subconsciously assume that world expects us to be that character and play that role. Its imitation of life, or simulacra and simulation that Baudrillard meant. So depending to what extent we were fed with such apples in childhood, it is then more difficult to get rid of dualism, coz distinction between me vs other world can become really strong. However, kids who were unconditionally loved by everyone around can become enlightened much easier once they are adults (and even during teen years) coz they didn't develop such a strong distinction between 'me vs world'. However, this is really subtle thing coz loving without conditions is tricky thing, coz how the hell you can maintain balance between unconditionality and survival of kid (implies conditioning and conditional love). I think raising truly psychologically healthy kids is almost an art.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Monkey-man

[zazed]

Autism is a broad spectrum, it also does not imply low IQ. Many autistic people have above average IQ, some even very high IQ.
Many become succesful scientists, programmers, mathematicians, anything the requires analytical thinking.
it seems some people do not really know what it is.

I think, the clear analytical thinking most autistic people have, is surely helpful for the study of the mind.
Concepts like non dualism, are surely easier to understand for autistic people. I think it is also easier to understand the fallacies of the mind, and step towards enlightenment, if you have certain problems. Stuff like not being able to make eye contact for example, and still trying, seeing that internal struggle. Or when something impacts the daily schedule of things, realizing perhaps where this comes from outside of control.
Autistic people have a tendency to obsess and go into thought loops, solving complex problems in their head. This can be a bit much
These can be unwelcome when they need to sleep. Meditation can give an autistic person more control over the mind, and even remove the symptoms.
 

As for enlightenment. A person does not become enlightened. Enlightenment becomes a person.
It is irrelevant i think. It is not the brain, mind, thoughts becoming enlightened. It is something outside of human experience entirely.
You do not have to have amazing thoughts during meditation for enlightenment, you don't have to have any thoughts at all. Enlightenment is not a sudden "idea" you achieve from thinking very hard as a smart guy.
 

[AlwaysBeNice]

53 minutes ago, Outer said:

Please no "normal people are more autistic than autistic people", you are just destroying debate, your own thinking. Unless you're living in 1984 don't do that. Doublethink.

Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength, War is Peace.

Case in point, an autistic person probably wouldn't make such generic fuss

[Heart of Space]

2 hours ago, Outer said:

Yeah I disagree with that. Though not all spiritual teachers, I got this from Jed McKenna. Whatever the definition is in his book that's what I mean, if I didn't give it its fair shot.

Basically high IQ is speed, speed to get to university, a job, learn things, it includes everything including enlightenment. So you'd take so long you'd actually never become enlightened. Even if you work really much.

Oh ok, I actually think we're in agreement, at least with that last statement regarding IQ and the speed of learning.  That absolutely effects your ability to do this work and the speed at which you progress.  You're totally right, it does make a difference in that regard.  

[Heart of Space]

6 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

Your own intelligence is also your own worst enemy, because it is necessarily co-opted by fear/maya. So it could easily be argued that someone with high intelligence just has to work that much harder.

Also ones own cleverness tends to be that much more of a barrier to relinquishing the illusion of control. You're always trying to outsmart reality instead of just allowing yourself to relax and be a simpleton and take queues from reality and letting it do most of the work, i.e. releasing the tiller.

"Great intelligence and effective thinking seldom go together." -- JM

Very well put, friend.  I was trying to make that point a little earlier in my discussion with @Outer.  Great points.  

Edited January 26, 2018 by Heart of Space

[Leo Gura]

There's a quick way to test it.

Autistic person + psychedelic = ??????

I would assume it works just like usual. Which shows you there is hope.

[AlwaysBeNice]

I think intelligence isn't much of a factor expect for getting you serious about the path, aside from that it's mostly desire + honesty.

As far as intelligence is making it harder, only to the degree your attached to intellectual ego/knowing, which is usually the most revered trait and the strongest addiction too (thinking), because it's also so useful for the material realm, but not for letting go indeed.

[Deep]

@AlldayLoop Yes, absolutely! 

[Vingger]

Yes

to be awake means to be yourself