Why does Leo seem so certain?

[Monkey-man]

@Mighty Mouse do you really want that full enlightenment? most seekers will be happy to be in some nondual state that feels fulfilled, peaceful, and where suffering from body/mind identification doesn't exist anymore. n i think its totally fine. i don't see why anyone can crave for more unless they are very hardcore fans of true nature of reality, i think 90% of truth-seeking only exist from sense of unfulfillment

Edited January 26, 2018 by Monkey-man

[SOUL]

@Mighty Mouse  You have such complete faith in your own doubt that you absolutely doubt another's faith.

 

[SOUL]

26 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

I have no idea what you just said.

I don't doubt that.

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Mighty Mouse said:

the fact remains that the things he says about enlightenment are patently false.

What exactly are you claiming I'm saying is false?

[Kserkkj]

@Leo Gura

On 1/25/2018 at 5:48 PM, Leo Gura said:

Consciousness of the Absolute is beyond the mind. You're not being asked to trust the mind at that point. In fact, you're conscious there is no mind.

Skepticism takes you to the very edge of the mind, then you go into direct nondual experience, which is beyond mind, beyond concepts, beyond doubt, beyond skepticism.

The Absolute is the end result of skepticism. Skepticism goes full-circle into absolute knowing that everything is unknown being.

No, "OMG, I'M GOD, I'M INFINITY!" is not ego. That's the Absolute. To the outside observer, of course, they cannot tell the difference.

Hi Friend,

   I Very Much Apologize For My Disturbance.  However, I Would Like To Correct. There Is No You In Consciousness. It Is Not An Identity. Before You Judge My Words. Please See What I'm Trying To Say. You Are RIGHT In Every Way. But The Contradictions Must Be Resolved. Through LOGIC which Is Part Of ILLUSION(This Is very Significant). Anyways. You Are What You aren't. And You Aren't What Nothing Is. Good Luck

RIN. RIN. RIN.

[eskwire]

On 1/25/2018 at 0:01 PM, Mighty Mouse said:

Being enlightened or not has nothing to do with what you're experiencing.

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!

 

Yeah it does. Whole different way of living and not one you can see from the outside. Have you had any enlightenment experiences? 

[eskwire]

What I wanna know is why is Leo so certain that psychedelically induced enlightenment episodes are the same as old school ones. 

[Nahm]

@Mighty Mouse   “I don’t do heart!” - JM

 Good luck! ???

 

[SOUL]

It's clear someone needs some more money so the guerilla marketing tactics....

[Deep]

On 1/25/2018 at 1:51 PM, Scholar said:

 Shouldn't the true realization just be not knowing, to such a degree that one would actually cease to exist completely? So much so that no concepts will follow?

Or is Leo actually dead inside right now, and all the words he is speaking are delusional anyways? Because all concepts must be. I don't know, but it seems like Leo even though he pretends to be skeptical, he actually just believes it. "Direct experience = reality", but that's just another concept, how does he know that it's true?

But then again non-dual teaching does say that there is no difference between nothing and illusion. I'm so confused, and I do not want to be deluded with fairy tales, even if it is direct experience for me. Right now it is direct experience to me that I exist, so why wouldn't my mind be capable of creating the delusion that I am the absolute, as an actual reality?

You're right, the mind can delude itself. No, true realization isn't not knowing. When someone says they are God, they are speaking about the witness to the body and mind. The only way to become aware of the witness is to hold the mind still. That requires a lot of discipline and 99.99999% of people are incapable of doing that. 

Non-dual teachings say you are always the Absolute regardless if you're aware of it or not. That's why there is no difference between illusion and nothing. The only thing we can know is what we are experiencing in the present. 

 

[SOUL]

2 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

bullshit

.....absolutely.

[Joseph Maynor]

7 hours ago, Mighty Mouse said:

It's not one or two things, your whole paradigm is off because you don't really know yet what's going on here. Also you're too sticky with your ideas about where it's supposed to lead and how to get there. Probably because you've been taking your queues from teachers who got stuck with the same assumptions for the same reasons.

Just like everyone else, you formed an image of what this is all about from the very start, from whatever sources you could find, and it never occured to you that you might be barking up the wrong tree. I know this because I've been there. I suppose it's inevitable, that's why it's such a common and effective trap. But seeing through the wrong tree and finding the right tree also doesn't happen overnight, and it doesn't happen at all until the First Step. Because that's what the First Step is.

You're making pretty much every single mistake that JM warns against. What's more, you're teaching them to everyone else, just like those who taught them to you. They are very common mistakes of course which is exactly why he warns against them. You're certainly not a run-of-the-mill seeker but nobody is beyond these kinds of mistakes. If you wonder why I'm so grateful for JM, it's because I would probably still be barking up the wrong tree if it weren't for his books.

I've tried to explain all this before in detail but there's no point until you see it for yourself. Which maybe you will, because the things you're learning are nonetheless pretty good in my not-so-humble opinion. Just stop trying to fit everything into your existing paradigm and expect the ground to disappear from under you. You won't find truth as long as you think you've already got it down. It's "further"...

Wow, I didn't realize you had such substance.  Why don't you share your wisdom with us more?

 

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Epiphany_Inspired]

@Scholar I think a simple way to comprehend this is: Leo's conviction likely comes from his direct personal experience (something we cannot truly be a part of).

@Leo Gura I support you, and completely respect you for doing this, and I love the authenticity!!! As for the potential point of contention with the psychedelic involvement....( I see where this could feed the skeptics, the beginning of the video, where your hand was no longer "yours", reminded me of Lrrr after eating a Hippie...  sorry Leo... I think it's an amazing video, and I am so grateful to you for sharing it!!! ) anyway, perhaps....the next time something similar happens, on a meditation retreat or something, you could film that too.....so that it can be seen "without" as well? I don't know....maybe that's like asking  a virgin to pretend it's her first time again....when there's no blood etc, and it's obviously not the first time anymore ...lol.... I don't know... I'm stoked for you regardless of how you got there, and it may actually give sceptics more faith in trying psychedelics too...thank you so much for the inclusion!

Edit: @Leo Gura I started feeling like a jerk for posting Lrrr, my intention was not to attack your authenticity at a time, when you were so genuine and vulnerable... it was just to show that the beginning of the video accidentally fits the stereotype that people have for psychedelic users "tripping out on their hands"....maybe that part could be edited out, but would that take too much away from" seeing it in action"?  I'm tempted to remove the Lrrr clip...but want to be authentic too....so,  I don't know....

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Epiphany_Inspired

[Leo Gura]

12 hours ago, Mighty Mouse said:

It's not one or two things, your whole paradigm is off because you don't really know yet what's going on here. Also you're too sticky with your ideas about where it's supposed to lead and how to get there. Probably because you've been taking your queues from teachers who got stuck with the same assumptions for the same reasons.

Just like everyone else, you formed an image of what this is all about from the very start, from whatever sources you could find, and it never occured to you that you might be barking up the wrong tree. I know this because I've been there. I suppose it's inevitable, that's why it's such a common and effective trap. But seeing through the wrong tree and finding the right tree also doesn't happen overnight, and it doesn't happen at all until the First Step. Because that's what the First Step is.

You're making pretty much every single mistake that JM warns against. What's more, you're teaching them to everyone else, just like those who taught them to you. They are very common mistakes of course which is exactly why he warns against them. You're certainly not a run-of-the-mill seeker but nobody is beyond these kinds of mistakes. If you wonder why I'm so grateful for JM, it's because I would probably still be barking up the wrong tree if it weren't for his books.

I've tried to explain all this before in detail but there's no point until you see it for yourself. Which maybe you will, because the things you're learning are nonetheless pretty good in my not-so-humble opinion. Just stop trying to fit everything into your existing paradigm and expect the ground to disappear from under you. You won't find truth as long as you think you've already got it down. It's "further"...

You have some valid points. Of course I expect to be mindfucked some more and errors to be expunged in this process.

But I cannot hold JM in such high regard as you do. From everything I've studied and experienced, what he says just doesn't ring fully correct. As one example, he says in one of this books that there are a single digit number of enlightened people on the planet. This is patently false to me.

Of course I could be wrong. People will have to judge for themselves. I can only judge as best as I can judge. But I don't see JM as the highest realized master. I smell closedmindedness in him, despite whatever awakening he has obviously had. And I smell that you have drank his cool-aid a little too much.

As far a "further", I'm all for that. The thing I try to get across to people the most is that "you do not know how deep the rabbit hole goes, so don't rest on your laurels, thinking you've completed the journey."

[Leo Gura]

@Mighty Mouse I don't hold Ra in any special regard. I take a holistic snapshot of over 100 enlightened masters and cross-reference all the their perspectives to form a sort of meta-perspective of the field. I'm not saying this approach is infallible, but I think it's pretty solid as a guiding map. And then of course comes direct experience.

JM's models don't actually explain the entire field of spirituality very well. He just throws it all in the trash, and for me, that's way too flippant of an attitude.

To say, for example, as JM does, that meditation doesn't work, is pretty silly, IMO. It shows that he hasn't actually meditated seriously.

[Shanmugam]

@Mighty Mouse Who is JM? full form?

[Leo Gura]

@Mighty Mouse Of course it's not about Jed McKenna. I'm talking about his message. There isn't even a guy there. He used a fake name and persona. I got nothing against the guy. I question his teachings.

Although I'm also grateful for his books. He has helped me to cut through the bullshit. My point is, that can also go too far.

[Leo Gura]

@Mighty Mouse I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[Shanmugam]

6 minutes ago, Mighty Mouse said:

Who cares.

 

Google cares...  I was just curious.. Googling for JM doesn't tell me much.. got from Leo's post now that it is  Jed McKenna

[lens]

 

Quote

JM's models don't actually explain the entire field of spirituality very well. He just throws it all in the trash, and for me, that's way too flippant of an attitude.

@Leo Gura can you explain something to me? When you say he "doesn't explain the entire field" do you mean there is something missing in spirituality or to truth? which one do you take priority on? Because i've seen the forum from a far for a while and i see a lot of talks about chakras, love, third eye,  and i'm not denying it, but i feel like it's more of a distraction of a happy feeling for the ego than actually doing the work to unconver the delusion. isn't the point to wake up? what would matter if some stuff would be left out if it didn't impact the end result?