Is Privacy a Lost Cause?

[-T8]

Emerging technologies are constantly asking for more and more information that can be used to track your every move and be used to make money. It seems that people are giving up their privacy for convenience where the data collected is much more valuable than the service provided (Ex. google, facebook, amazon etc). Recently I got Linked In after being pressured by university and it feels weird that my resume is now online for anyone to see. Even though it might help me get a job in the future, I feel like it isn't worth the loss of privacy.

With the technologies like virtual reality, brain-computer interface and the internet of things, it looks like privacy will only continue to decline until even our thoughts will be public information. Personally, it seems that so far I have just tried to ignore what is going on behind the scenes and focus on the convenience of using new technologies/websites/apps. I am afraid that the majority of people will continue to just trust that these technologies will not be abused and will end up being completely taken advantage of.

My question for you guys is: Where do you draw the line and say that you are not willing to give up privacy for convenience??? 

If you had a choice to get an eye/brain implant that could offer unbelievable benefits, would you get it???  If you decide to not get the implant, how much would this affect your quality of life? would you become inferior to those who get the implant?

I'm interested to hear what you guys have to say on the topic!

 

[aurum]

@-T8

I love it. A goal of mine is to have a camera crew follow me around all day, Gary Vee style.

What most people call "privacy" is really just hiding. They're scared to put themselves out there, even though they'd massively benefit from it.

People who make a big impact know that attention is the name of the game. They embrace the spotlight, not shy away from it.

What has privacy ever done for you except protect you from disapproval?

[Faceless]

Lololol 

??‍♂️

Edited January 22, 2018 by Faceless

[Max_V]

I had to read the book ‘The Circle’ for school, it’s a fictional story that goes into depth about this issue. 

Pretty interesting

[ParanoidAndroid]

16 hours ago, aurum said:

@-T8

I love it. A goal of mine is to have a camera crew follow me around all day, Gary Vee style.

What most people call "privacy" is really just hiding. They're scared to put themselves out there, even though they'd massively benefit from it.

People who make a big impact know that attention is the name of the game. They embrace the spotlight, not shy away from it.

What has privacy ever done for you except protect you from disapproval?

That's not the point. The point is that we don't want governments and companies collecting data on individuals without their consent for no good reason. Imagine if before the internet the government intercepted everyone's letters. That's basically what's happening now and it's not ok. It's nothing to do with "putting yourself out there".

[Source_Mystic]

Your cell phpne is a tracking device your internet is public domain. The only privacy you currntly have is what you provide for yourself through self restraint aka (not posting every thought on facebook.) or programs that incript data.   

Edited January 22, 2018 by Source_Mystic

[star ark]

If there was no privacy there would be no crimes so I would look at crime stats to determine how well our privacy is being upheld.

[-T8]

On 1/22/2018 at 0:54 AM, Max_V said:

I had to read the book ‘The Circle’ for school, it’s a fictional story that goes into depth about this issue. 

Pretty interesting

Ill have to add that to the long list of books I need to read... Thanks!

On 1/22/2018 at 3:48 PM, ParanoidAndroid said:

That's not the point. The point is that we don't want governments and companies collecting data on individuals without their consent for no good reason. Imagine if before the internet the government intercepted everyone's letters. That's basically what's happening now and it's not ok. It's nothing to do with "putting yourself out there".

 @ParanoidAndroid I agree with you 100%, and I believe that people are going to be pressured to continue to give more and more information in order to "keep up with society". The thing that shocks me is how many people don't understand just how much data is being collected. How do you think it will affect peoples privacy when the digital world gets even more integrated into the real world?

 

[Max_V]

5 hours ago, -T8 said:

Ill have to add that to the long list of books I need to read... Thanks!

It's a fictional story with not really a lot of insights for the self-actualiser in it. It's just a good book for showing you how this 'knowing everything' in our society can really get outta hand.

So be careful about putting it on top of your most important list  

[Faceless]

1 minute ago, Caterpillar said:

Nothing is a lost cause but being low profile is not easy these days. And who knows maybe robot mosquitoes put a tracking device into your body while you sleep. 

???

[Huginn]

@-T8 It'll not be a lost cause on my watch. It's closely related to what I want to raise awareness of. It's a tricky topic though. It's not well understood enough or misunderstood by most people. It also takes some deliberate contemplation of what loss of privacy really entails, which most people are unwilling to do. They would rather stick their heads in the sand. The problem is similar that way to the resistance of looking within and questioning your beliefs. It can be scary. It will transform the way you look at the world. The payoff for looking out for privacy is also super non-obvious, especially when you're just considering yourself. The problem is exacerbated by mass surveillance and AI in non-obvious ways. I recommend Bruce Schneier's book Data and Goliath for a more in depth look on that.

My ideas for talking about this issue is to drop the term Privacy. Most people don't understand it as "degree of control over the dissemination of your information". The common understanding is more in the direction of "hiding your (dirty) secrets" which is not really addressing the issue. The issue is also not being connected to a broad enough context either. This connects to consciousness, (social) epistemology, sociology, information technology and security, artificial intelligence and more. To put down the issue simply as I understand it:

All of humanity is a group of consciousnesses. I'm consciousness, you're consciousness. Our conscious experience is affected by other's conscious or unconscious actions in reality. In this way, reality is the mechanism by which information passes between consciousnesses. Each of us is seeking experience (information) according to what we think we want. This experiencing thus depends upon yours and others' actions. Now, people want to (or think they want to) experience different things. They also differ in their level of consciousness. If everyone were completely conscious and moved in unison with the best of intentions and love towards each other, we wouldn't be talking about this. So, that is not the case. Instead, we need to play a power game. The ones who are winning get to experience the most of what they think they want. The game is to control the information that each consciousness receives and thereby controlling what they think and do. The amount of this control distributed over some number of consciousnesses is your level of power. The more power you have, the more you're winning because you have the ability to mold reality/experience more to your liking. You also have to protect your own consciousness from being controlled by consciousnesses that don't have your best interest in mind and be as connected as possible to those consciousnesses that do have your best interest in mind. You inevitably have to receive information from other consciousnesses, so it is best to get it from those that are most likely to uphold your interests.

To take an example. Facebook serves as a middleman for communication between consciousnesses. Facebook sees every single bit of information that passes between these consciousnesses. It also controls what information is presented to those consciousnesses. It can see your text messages and even substitute a text in transit for another. Most people use Facebook. Its power is thus enormous. It can control minds. But then you might say: "surely they won't abuse it, I mean, look at the privacy policies and all". This is where trust comes in. Do you trust that Facebook upholds your interests? I don't, because I know humanity as a whole is not conscious enough for that yet, if ever.

If any of you are interested in addressing this issue in some way, I'd like to keep in touch. There'll be no change without a tribe.

Btw. I'm writing this as anonymously as I can. Actualized.org doesn't know my traffic as anything else than TOR traffic. My email that I used to sign up with doesn't know my traffic as anything else either. To pinpoint me, you'd have to do a lot of work analyzing and correlating what I write here. But, once my level of trust is high enough, I can reveal myself through a secure channel to the right person. This is not paranoia, but just another habit I believe will serve me far into the future. I see how it affects the bigger picture in comparison to the alternative.

[Huginn]

On 1/22/2018 at 4:32 AM, aurum said:

@-T8

I love it. A goal of mine is to have a camera crew follow me around all day, Gary Vee style.

What most people call "privacy" is really just hiding. They're scared to put themselves out there, even though they'd massively benefit from it.

People who make a big impact know that attention is the name of the game. They embrace the spotlight, not shy away from it.

What has privacy ever done for you except protect you from disapproval?

I won't argue with the benefit of the general attitude of outgoingness, openness and authenticity. We want to present our core being to the world without constraint and with love. I really wish things were that simple, but I can't turn away from the reality of the situation.

A goal of mine is to put myself out there and express myself as honestly as I can. It's what I really want. It's my choice. My choice is not to have my communications with my friends intercepted by a third party and be vulnerable to modification. That's a power imbalance I can't abide, unless the interceptor gave me a good enough reason to trust him (which most have not).

Edited January 27, 2018 by Huginn

[Huginn]

@Outer One idea is "information control". I thought about "information supremacy", but that's kind of hostile, like the goal is to have power over the other party. Wanting to protect and uphold one's information control makes sense. I feel information needs to be in there, but maybe there's a better term than control.

[Huginn]

@Outer I don't quite agree. That Facebook has the power to decide what to show through algorithms only they know about, manipulating the interface and so on is not what I prefer. I want that much control over that information (information control). In fact, I'd prefer if Facebook were but a simple relay with proper end-to-end encryption, except for public posts directed to everyone. When I'm only directing your information to a limited number of people, I only want those people to see that information, but when it's public, sure everyone including Facebook may see it.

So in this sense, it seems you would find adequate to have a certain level of information control, but I would prefer a higher level of information control.

[Huginn]

@Outer I'm looking at information as ALL the information as presented on the screen and going to/from Facebook and the recipient. Even the interface of the web page is information coming from Facebook.

[Epiphany_Inspired]

@-T8 I draw a lot of lines here:

No smart meters to monitor my home, no personal info on FB, I live in the forest where drones aren't outside my bathroom window, I buy things with cash/ no online banking, I've stopped blogging or posting about my life, I limit photos, etc

That said "they" likely still have all my info... I just like to maintain my illusion of privacy... and as others don't seem to give a shit, they give out my info without my permission anyway...

I was heavily "monitored" for years after an accident. My privacy was violated more than you could imagine...they even filmed inside my windows which is illegal...they filmed outside where I used to shower naked in nature...they followed me everywhere and lived outside my home to film me constantly (I saw the footage with my lawyers, not paranoia)...they tracked down my friends, employers - everyone, and tried to get people to say "bad" things... luckily nobody did....

As a result, I cling to my illusions of/ desire for privacy, and seek out places to live, and friends that respect my "need" for this....If I'm at a show and people start filming, I hide, if a concert requires "scanning my ID" I don't go, if people want too much personal info - I disengage... and although this is partly about self-respect and personal preferences, it's also coming from a place of fear....@Caterpillar now I have to worry about robot mosquitoes too!

It's all so "big brother -1984" these days... when will the forced microchips and barcodes begin?... maybe we do have to draw some lines folks...there are authorities that would use these technologies to limit our freedom further, and further....is privacy a legitimate concern, or this just fear?

[Huginn]

@Epiphany_Inspired  I've felt this fear too, and it is a legitimate concern, especially after Snowden. Seems you've been creeped out way more than I ever have though. Maybe that's what's required for people to really wake up, get creeped out. That's what those who do surveillance account for though, and instead fly under the radar. What's on the horizon is not just mosquitos, but gnats. It's all getting burried in obscurity, complex algorithms, AI etc.

I like the habits you're putting in place. I've started using cash too. No online banking must be rough though? Haven't figured a good way around that yet. Hope you haven't closed off too much to express yourself online with your real name on it though. The rewards of expression can far outweigh the risks.

[Epiphany_Inspired]

@Huginn Thanks so much, I really appreciate that (except maybe for the scary "on the horizon": info...lol..)! No, it's fine...paying with real pirate doubloons has been cool so far (one small hiccup, once)... eventually other people come to accept that you will meet them in person to pay for their workshop, or concert, etc...although most other people do all of this e-transfer type stuff and expect it at first... I figure, if it's acceptable for an elderly person, I can usually get away with it... people still write cheques etc

Hmmmm, and yes... likely a lot of closing off in many directions... expression included... I will cultivate the bravery to be more open... or go back to giving less of a shit... lol... the risks for me, with self expression right now are things like how I will look in family court, and this can greatly effect my child's life, for better, or worse.... It currently doesn't appear like any rewards would outweigh any risks, as viewed from within my bubble... there is often some bizarre nemesis in my life I must battle, (silly lesson based universe), and sadly, my integrity, although internal, is viewed through my external expressions by others... 

No way, Jose, I don't use my actual name online anymore... there are only 2 of us on the planet with my name.... and I've just had 2 more stalkers even without using my name... the most recent one I've never even spoken to, they just spy on me in person, then try to contact me online, sending me their super creepy picture and messages... I recommend women protect themselves as much as possible... that said, I'm also sad that I'm not feeling safe enough to use my real picture on the forum anymore, I felt more friendly and connected with it somehow... again, @Huginn I appreciate your help so much!

[Huginn]

12 hours ago, Epiphany_Inspired said:

@Huginn Thanks so much, I really appreciate that (except maybe for the scary "on the horizon": info...lol..)! No, it's fine...paying with real pirate doubloons has been cool so far (one small hiccup, once)... eventually other people come to accept that you will meet them in person to pay for their workshop, or concert, etc...although most other people do all of this e-transfer type stuff and expect it at first... I figure, if it's acceptable for an elderly person, I can usually get away with it... people still write cheques etc

Ahh...there is so much fear around this privacy stuff and negative motivation. To uphold it is usually seen as avoiding a worse alternative. Since I'm passionate about this stuff, I wind up talking about how bad things are getting. There are plenty of fear tactics being used on the issue of privacy already and personally I don't see it working. That in combination with the technical expertise often needed to grasp it makes the issue especially unattractive.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just being overly paranoid and taking this too seriously. But I also don't want to fall asleep again and become complacent. That's the nature of the beast. It wants you to stay asleep, yet it's under the bed.

I've been thinking about how to use positive motivation for privacy/information control. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of our innermost shared human values and I think what's needed is to connect this stuff to those values. One idea I've been thinking of is to compare communication between people as it happens in the "real" world with communication as it actually takes place online. I think we possess a certain instinct about our real world communications that becomes very limited when it comes to communication technology. When we chat on Facebook, we don't really realize that these messages are being recorded and kept by real people that can do anything they want with it far into the future. The real world equivalent would be to have some Facebook person following us around and writing down our conversations in a notebook and taking copies of everything we share that he can do whatever he wants with. So if I just inform people this way, I'm just telling the truth in a way everyone understands. I'm not saying how things should be. I'm just telling the truth. In the end, people will make up their own minds, I'm just giving them a chance to do so.

Any other ideas on positive motivation for this would be appreciated if anyone got any.

13 hours ago, Epiphany_Inspired said:

No way, Jose, I don't use my actual name online anymore... there are only 2 of us on the planet with my name.... and I've just had 2 more stalkers even without using my name... the most recent one I've never even spoken to, they just spy on me in person, then try to contact me online, sending me their super creepy picture and messages... I recommend women protect themselves as much as possible... that said, I'm also sad that I'm not feeling safe enough to use my real picture on the forum anymore, I felt more friendly and connected with it somehow... again, @Huginn I appreciate your help so much!

Well. Without your personally identifiable information out there, you can just have a laugh at those stalker antics. Sticks and stones, not that even. Maybe you wouldn't feel as sad about that picture if we culturally came to an understanding that being anonymous on the Internet is a very normal and understandable state, as a default, and that it's not about being withdrawn or anything like that. As we talk more, share more over time and get to know each other, trust is built.

[Epiphany_Inspired]

@Huginn Everything you said was amazing! I hope it helps @-T8 too! Awareness may be one of the keys that can keep the door open... I really like that analogy about the Facebook record keeping, it's perfect! As someone that's actually experienced someone following me around recording everything... it particularly hits home!  That said, because of my personal experience, I am possibly able to understand what that actually feels like more than posing it as a hypothetical to others...

Being anonymous, online, or off, is often interpreted as hiding.... and this is extra tricky because there can be misrepresentation as well (think of people with crushes on, or virtually dating, someone using another person's photo, often a different age or sex)... so many people are hurt, even rapped this way... so building that trust you spoke of will be hard...

I can think of this in my own life...and laugh now... but it really fucked me up at the time... a gay friend was using an icon photo on a social site, I thought he was a new friend, and I developed a crush... I got super mad when I found out I was "deceived", even though he had no intention to do so... he thought I knew it was him... just a misunderstanding... and because I do love him so much, I can see how that could happen quite easily...lol.... anyway... a picture that's not my actual, somewhat current, face still doesn't feel right, but I hope to get to that place of either trust or indifference with the pictures too