Why not end it?

[star ark]

18 minutes ago, Thanatos13 said:

That doesn’t make much sense considering that you don’t have to or need to do any of that. That isn’t the point,  because there is no point. There isn’t a difference in dying sooner than you will, you can’t take anything with you and you won’t remember anything that happened.

 

You're so sure on these things?

You talk as if you have facts that pertain to everyone

Maybe you have no point but why come here and convince all of us we need to kill ourselves too? Why come here and tell all of us our lives are meaningless suffering? 

You claim to be certain yet keep arguing that you know how meaningless we are. You are CERTAIN you are meaningless right? So why isn't the bullet in your brain yet?

[Guest Annetta]

@Thanatos13 I'm not interested in the statement.  I'm interested in proposing an alternative solution to suicidal thoughts by offering a solution that might hault a negative feedback loop.

[Thanatos13]

Just now, SOUL said:

So now you are going to tell me what I don't have to or need to do? Well, my friend, what you say about it and your "insight" is no truth in my life in the least, I can view my own experience any way I see fit.... that is the point!

You saying there is no point, no need or anything you want about it isn't any absolute truth or more right or accurate or anything other than your view of your life.... not mine about my life. You questioning my choice for my own life is merely the fruit of your own misery and suffering but I don't have to endure it, that's on you.

I choose to live a fulfilled and joyful life while I am alive in any way I see fit for my own experience, you can do whatever you see fit for your own life but your "insight" is useless to me. Your nihilistic dystopia is of your own creating, it doesn't belong to anyone but you.

 

 

Actually the “dystopia” I live in is the truth, whether or not you want to accept it is your own doing. The rallying cry of personal truth seems to be a desperate attempt by spirituals to feel good about living. Not to mention there is a good deal of evidence to back it up. Not prove it, mind you. But the conclusion seems likely.

Overall I’m content so far with what I have seen. I know life owes us nothing and gives nothing. Existence doesn’t bend to human concepts of fairness. That our lives don’t really matter and what we do will be forgotten quickly. Purpose and fulfillment seem like tricks of the mind to prevent despair.

It was like when Leo said to do something that is emotionally difficult, but that could be anything. It could even be murder, rape, or stealing. So what then? Does one still do it? 

[Thanatos13]

4 minutes ago, star ark said:

You're so sure on these things?

You talk as if you have facts that pertain to everyone

Maybe you have no point but why come here and convince all of us we need to kill ourselves too? Why come here and tell all of us our lives are meaningless suffering? 

You claim to be certain yet keep arguing that you know how meaningless we are. You are CERTAIN you are meaningless right? So why isn't the bullet in your brain yet?

Because contrary to any logic I have for it, suicide is very difficult to perform. The brains and body have survival mechanisms that prevent us from offing ourselves. 

If i see it that way it’s because I haven’t discovered sufficient evidence to believe otherwise. Or I haven’t heard an argument to counter mine.

Science teaches that pure certainty is a myth, so no I’m not certain. But I am fairly confident in the likelihood of it. I just wanted to address the holes in the videos. 

[Girzo]

There is no point in living. Also, there is no point in ending it prematurely. But it seems like you haven't really grasped that yet, because you assign a lot of meaning to this issue.

7 minutes ago, Thanatos13 said:

Whatever I decide in life I will forget when I die.

More like you will remember it forever.  Your mind has you in it's grips, you need to stop trusting bullshit it produces.

I am sorry if it sounds incompassionate, I just can't put it better in words.

[Thanatos13]

1 minute ago, Girzo said:

There is no point in living. Also, there is no point in ending it prematurely. But it seems like you haven't really grasped that yet, because you assign a lot of meaning to this issue.

More like you will remember it forever.  Your mind has you in it's grips, you need to stop trusting bullshit it produces.

I am sorry if it sounds incompassionate, I just can't put it better in words.

I get that there is no point in either direction, but that doesn’t really address the issue. 

Its funny how you seek refuge in the “bullshit” of the mind, but how do you know it’s bullshit? What if it’s telling you something and you just don’t like what it has to say? There isn’t evidence to suggest that I’ll remember anything, so I cannot operate under that assumption. If that were the case, then I feel sorry for those who were murdered brutally. 

 

You seem awfully certain that the mind is deceiving. But how can you know? So far the only bullshit I have seen is from spirituality once you turn skepticism on it.

[Guest Annetta]

Are you playing devils advocate for a broader perspective?

[pluto]

@Thanatos13 You cannot stop what already flows

How you choose to see and live it is entirely up to you but whether you like it or not we are part of a greater intelligence not even the most enlightened being on this planet understands fully but merely knows its presence. Is a cell aware that its a part of a whole? Does a cell understand the whole?

We are here to experience subjectively, only to grow and expand collectively.

[Thanatos13]

3 minutes ago, pluto said:

@Thanatos13 You cannot stop what already flows

How you choose to see and live it is entirely up to you but whether you like it or not we are part of a greater intelligence not even the most enlightened being on this planet understands fully but merely knows its presence. Is a cell aware that its a part of a whole? Does a cell understand the whole?

We are here to experience subjectively, only to grow and expand collectively.

You actually can stop what flows. It happens to streams.

 

How do you know that we are part of a greater intelligence? What’s the evidence for that? Unlike a cell (which we have evidence for being part of a larger body) there isn’t anything to suggest we are part of a greater intelligence.

The fact that we experience subjectively (assuming other people exist)  is more a feature of the body rather than a purpose. To grow and expand is what all life does, but that’s not a purpose either.

[SOUL]

1 minute ago, Thanatos13 said:

Actually the “dystopia” I live in is the truth, whether or not you want to accept it is your own doing. The rallying cry of personal truth seems to be a desperate attempt by spirituals to feel good about living. Not to mention there is a good deal of evidence to back it up. Not prove it, mind you. But the conclusion seems likely.

Overall I’m content so far with what I have seen. I know life owes us nothing and gives nothing. Existence doesn’t bend to human concepts of fairness. That our lives don’t really matter and what we do will be forgotten quickly. Purpose and fulfillment seem like tricks of the mind to prevent despair.

It was like when Leo said to do something that is emotionally difficult, but that could be anything. It could even be murder, rape, or stealing. So what then? Does one still do it? 

That dystopian nihilistic paradigm you think you see all that life as is merely your own personal truth and is not "absolute truth", don't delude yourself into believing you have any special insight but it appears you may already be steeped in it.

Just because you have bought into a nihilistic belief system so view your own life through the prism of it doesn't make it the truth for everyone, it's just yours and you foisting this belief system onto others is just you unable to emotionally and/or intellectually deal with your own personal truth.

I live my life the way I see fit as you do yours but keep in mind if you choose to inflict abuse on another person it's not just an abstract argument of philosophy or merely a belief, it's being abusive.

[Girzo]

5 minutes ago, Thanatos13 said:

I get that there is no point in either direction, but that doesn’t really address the issue. 

It does. It actually makes an issue a non-issue. How do I know? From a direct experience. Am I deluded? Maybe, but not on the level of thought.

7 minutes ago, Thanatos13 said:

What if it’s telling you something and you just don’t like what it has to say?

What would that be?

9 minutes ago, Thanatos13 said:

You seem awfully certain that the mind is deceiving. But how can you know?

Because it's a fucking trickster, I got fooled enough in my life to know that. I mean, I fooled myself and probably will fool myself in the future. Undoubtfully, but I try to minimze impact of these errors by looking for other methods of accessing truths. And yes I know that tricking you into thinking that mind lies and then starting to tell you truths, so you don't believe them is one of the tricks up the mind's sleeves. That's why you are always one step behind, but also one step in front, because your mind is no different than you. That's where my knowledge ends, the rest is uncharted territory for me.

[star ark]

18 minutes ago, Thanatos13 said:

You actually can stop what flows. It happens to streams.

 

How do you know that we are part of a greater intelligence? What’s the evidence for that? Unlike a cell (which we have evidence for being part of a larger body) there isn’t anything to suggest we are part of a greater intelligence.

The fact that we experience subjectively (assuming other people exist)  is more a feature of the body rather than a purpose. To grow and expand is what all life does, but that’s not a purpose either.

that's a metaphor

you just want to argue

 

[Truth]

@Thanatos13

 

The ego can't escape it's own desires by telling itself that it's own desires are logical enough to escape it's own desires. that creates the desire in the first place! the mechanism that is creating the desire IS the mechanism that is creating this desire of yours! you can't escape it with your logic.

The question is NOT "Why not end it?"The question is WHY would you want to end it? Because you told yourself that it's logical? Your desire to be logical in order to escape yourself is it's own fallacy. You can't escape your desire to end it just because it's "logical". you're just creating the very thing that you're running away from! Actually, the better question is where did this desire come from in the first place?

just the fact that this idea popped up into your head and the fact that you posted it here on the forum created a desire in you. and what is your desire? Why are you here posting? To end desires! you can't escape them no matter how hard you try. that means if you put a gun to your head and pull the trigger and blow your brains out, before that happened you were just feeding the desire you were trying to destroy. Congratulations you killed yourself, before you died you thought you won, but you actually lost. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Truth

[pluto]

20 minutes ago, Thanatos13 said:

You actually can stop what flows. It happens to streams.

 

How do you know that we are part of a greater intelligence? What’s the evidence for that? Unlike a cell (which we have evidence for being part of a larger body) there isn’t anything to suggest we are part of a greater intelligence.

The fact that we experience subjectively (assuming other people exist)  is more a feature of the body rather than a purpose. To grow and expand is what all life does, but that’s not a purpose either.

Did the cell figure that out or did the whole? Now you know why we don't have "evidence". Somethings in life only come from direct experience.

[Thanatos13]

27 minutes ago, Girzo said:

It does. It actually makes an issue a non-issue. How do I know? From a direct experience. Am I deluded? Maybe, but not on the level of thought.

What would that be?

Because it's a fucking trickster, I got fooled enough in my life to know that. I mean, I fooled myself and probably will fool myself in the future. Undoubtfully, but I try to minimze impact of these errors by looking for other methods of accessing truths. And yes I know that tricking you into thinking that mind lies and then starting to tell you truths, so you don't believe them is one of the tricks up the mind's sleeves. That's why you are always one step behind, but also one step in front, because your mind is no different than you. That's where my knowledge ends, the rest is uncharted territory for me.

But that doesn’t prove that it’s a trickster. You just assume that. Literally nothing you have said is proof that the mind is a trickster (that would assume intent as well and some kind of personality). It could be the truth and what you think is the truth could be a trick. 

 

As as I have said, you assume too much.

[Thanatos13]

18 minutes ago, pluto said:

Did the cell figure that out or did the whole? Now you know why we don't have "evidence". Somethings in life only come from direct experience.

Direct experience is the most flawed testimony of all, even the ancient skeptics knew that. You can use that line to justify literally any claim in existence, it would even negate anything you are trying to say to someone just because their experience is different. Even then there is no way to know that what you experience is truth. Just because it feels so doesn’t mean it is.

Its also rather fallacious to use the cell analogy with the body. You cannot assume there is something greater.

[Thanatos13]

26 minutes ago, Truth said:

@Thanatos13

 

The ego can't escape it's own desires by telling itself that it's own desires are logical enough to escape it's own desires. that creates the desire in the first place! the mechanism that is creating the desire IS the mechanism that is creating this desire of yours! you can't escape it with your logic.

The question is NOT "Why not end it?"The question is WHY would you want to end it? Because you told yourself that it's logical? Your desire to be logical in order to escape yourself is it's own fallacy. You can't escape your desire to end it just because it's "logical". you're just creating the very thing that you're running away from!

just the fact that this idea popped up into your head and the fact that you posted it here on the forum created a desire in you. and what is your desire? Why are you here posting? To end desires! you can't escape them no matter how hard you try. that means if you put a gun to your head and pull the trigger and blow your brains out, before that happened you were just feeding the desire you were trying to destroy. Congratulations you killed yourself, before you died you thought you won, but you actually lost. 

You do know that holding something doesn’t make it true, right? Nor does having a name like truth give you weight.

Its not an escape per se, more like not seeing a reason to go on really. It’s not sadness, more like logic. The question IS “why go on”, not why end it. That seems to assume that life is a good thing to cut short. 

 

You cannot escape desire, they are always with you. It’s a matter of what kind of weight you give them. Without desires humans would literally do nothing. But that’s not the point here. It seems like you assume there is an enemy to fight or a contest to win, perhaps that is the fatal flaw of the spiritual types. From a truly objective view, I would assume that choosing life or death doesn’t really matter. But that’s an assumption.

Im not position to end desire, merely attempting to show the holes in the thinking around here. It’s part experiment and part finding an answer to the insight I have. People assume life to be good, otherwise why live? You pass many judgements for those who claim no ego. I have found more balanced responses from materialists and atheists. At least they admit they don’t know, instead of just arguing through assertion. 

 

Life isnt a contest or a race. There aren’t any winners or losers. Whatever one chooses is “right”.

[Epiphany_Inspired]

@Thanatos13 I'm going to provide my perspective...like food for thought....but I'm not interested in a debate, sorry....I write this simply as a gift of compassion...ok....so, if we can't assume there is something greater...then we could safely call death "the unknown"....with that, we could agree that in sudden death we MAY not have all of the *choices* we have access to in life...............it's as if you hold in your hand (the hand that votes for living) a "choose your own adventure" book with almost infinite possibilities, opportunities, and potential.... and in the other (suicide hand) you hold a novel with only a single journey.... yes, we don't know which adventure is "best" or "most beautiful"... but we do know, that if you choose to live, you can actually have *both books*! From every rational lens I look through... experiencing the infinite adventures of life first is the best course of action...and likely why we usually LIVE and experience all we can while we can! I hope to talk to you about this again in a decade or so... If you can get to happiness, you likely would no longer question the validity of life.... you wouldn't want to miss a single amazing present moment of it! Sending love and wishes for your ultimate happiness!

[Truth]

"Thought is always saying that thought didn't do it."

Jumping to a bunch of conclusions about what you THINK I'm saying isn't gonna do anything for you. It's all a house of cards. but can you SEE what I'm pointing towards?

12 minutes ago, Thanatos13 said:

merely attempting to show the holes in the thinking around here.

There's no holes. You're just creating holes. That's how it works.

You assume I'm arguing, you assume I'm defending, you assume I'm using my name to give me weight, you assume I'm trying to fight or trying to win, this is how the justification game works.

Me admitting that I don't know doesn't explain anything. You assume I know. can't you see what's really going on here or should we continue this game? 

[David_eh]

3 hours ago, Thanatos13 said:

One thing that I never understood was why bother doing literally any of it when suicide is a more expedient alternative. 

 

Its like an insight I had one day when I realized I don’t have to or need to live. It’s optional 

This is a very strange insight in my eyes. That the individual self is a trick of the mind doesn't mean it's just a waste of time or whatever.

 

Just because we see through the illusion doesn't mean we stop using it... 

 

Put another way, duality is our tool, not the other way around.

 

Carl Sagan said we are a way for the Cosmos to know itself. 

 

Are you nihilist or self actualizing? 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by David_eh