Can ego come back someday after enlightenment?

[Shanmugam]

8 minutes ago, pluto said:

Ultimately same thing, when the experience happens you don't "leave the physical body" you transcend illusion/physical existence along with everything else in your existence thus you and everyone and everything else cease to exist in that absolute infinite moment. We cannot grasp this because physical limitations but all is one as one is all., Ultimately.

Now one may have the argument but i am here and your physical body still remained there while you claimed it had happened yet we are not entirely sure we are even here to begin with so we nor are separate from anything else in existence.

This is source understanding, a source expression experience and it can Only be experienced but it cannot be grasped and that is the whole joy of it. This may sound mumbo jumbo to many even most highly developed spiritually attuned people but when it happens it blows everything else beyond, even a nanosecond is enough to humble and surrender to all that is indefinitely.

 

Sadhguru is not talking about that... He is actually talking about the literal death, the kind of death after which the body starts to stink in 24 hours..

[pluto]

16 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

Sadhguru is not talking about that... He is actually talking about the literal death, the kind of death after which the body starts to stink in 24 hours..

How do we know everything else still exists when that happens though? What if the literal death is just an illusion in itself

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by pluto

[Faceless]

20 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

Sadhguru is not talking about that... He is actually talking about the literal death, the kind of death after which the body starts to stink in 24 hours..

lol 

[Buba]

14 hours ago, Highest said:

He becomes emptiness and nothingness, all identification dies.

Many people visit psychotherapist complaining about emptiness, nothingness and etc. Is it the same? Were they facing the Truth but did not know it and were terrified?

When I was 14 years old, I got a big emptiness, meaninglessness, nothingness inside. I was terrified. I was a watcher. Years passed like this. Then I made my brain busy with school and etc. 

8 hours ago, Faceless said:

Only in the understanding of reality can we see with clarity what is true or false. Correct and incorrect. 

Do we understand reality by mind? Do we get enlightened by means of mind? When I meditate how do I decide to focus on breath - by mind? 

No? Can a schizophrenic person get enlightened? What about dumb people? What about people who were born deaf and blind? What can they focus on to be aware of reality?

8 hours ago, RossE said:

But this is along a never ending downward, outward, inward plummet to God, nothingness, empty source.

Sounds frightening.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Buba

[Faceless]

@Buba

what is used when investigation of reality? 

Thought right? And if so how can thought investigate reality if thought is not able to function with clarity?

Is not reality everything that thought operates on, fabricates on, or reflects about. If we do not know the nature of reality how can the investigation maintain coherence? 

[Nahm]

Without ego, there is nothing to manage though. If the ego is truly dissolved, the union is constant, unconditional love is the default state of being. Enlightenment, in terms of going full circle, or returning to where one was to begin with, means God. It means one was never a separate thing to begin with, that was simply a perspective. The ego is behind the thinking of training it. This is a trick used to sustain itself, to sustain beliefs. The only way to hold the belief that one would always have ego is to not have experienced reality without it. 

[Nahm]

@Faceless Thought is not enough. It’s far beyond thought. Thinking is for things like using your cell phone, which is practically impossible on even 2 grams of shrooms. Meditation can take us beyond / behind thinking. Clarity is a thought thing. Clarity is not synonymous at all with nonthinking. 

[Faceless]

@Nahm

How does one know when thought is not attributing to itself a false sense of that which is limitless?

Or in other words how does one know when thought is not moving? Or do we know if we are deceiving ourselves or if we are caught in an illusion?  Thought in its very nature does not know when it is acting. An example is the self. Thought attributes to itself the image of the me, and you. This is a very subtle self deception. Thought is very very subtle. 

If thought is unaware of its action and its own movement how do we know when thought attributes to itself somthing that is beyond its limit. Or how do we know during this state of “meditation” which is supposedly free of thought that that is so? 

Do you see where I’m going with this? If we do not understand thought how do we know when it is moving and when it is not? 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Faceless

[Nahm]

@Faceless I understand what you’re saying, that is the value of meditation and psychedelics. Thinking is entirely of the illusion. 

[Faceless]

@Nahm

 ?? Friend 

Well it depends on what one means by meditation. And I know a lot of people promote it but personally I don’t see the necessity of using psychedelics. But I’m not a hater either lol. 

 

To me in seeing and understanding this field of reality there ceases to be any psychological involvement, any psychological demands, which are all forms of illusion. To see all that is intelligence. And the truth, “perception, insight, then operates on reality or “thought” through that intelligence. 

 

The beginning of meditation is the seeing and understanding of the whole field of the self,”thought” and without this understanding, what is called meditation, however pleasurable “mechanical and fragmentary”, can easily become a self deception and self-hypnosis. It’s simply about being attentive to what is or the the whole nature, structure, and substance of thought. To see the truth in the false sets the mind free from the false. And in this freedom from the false is the beginning of a center-less state of being. Or as I like to refer to as the headless state. The state where I am not. 

 

To me this is the art of living. I’m sure you see this already though friend?

always a pleasure Nahm??

 

[Rinne]

@Leo Gura I love you leo lol

[deci belle]

 

Source Mystic said:

Quote

There is no "without ego."  This concept you all have of ego death/permanent eradication is a fallacy. The ego is a function of your being.

I would like to condense this just a bit and say that ego is the function that constitutes karmic evolution in terms of creation. Leaving aside concepts for the moment, there is still no "your" either before, during or after experiencing the sudden. Complete perfect enlightenment bears this out.

The "fear" expressed in the OP is precisely what destroys the power of nonbeing's objectivity in the aftermath of the sudden by virtue of clinging. Clinging to one's tiny bit of enlightenment in terms of experiencing the absolute is no different than clinging to one's prior false identity.

So ego isn't "your" being; rather, it constitutes the locus of the identity-cluster of the psychological apparatus of the being that is going to die. Even in terms of the temporal, there is no "your", and there never has been. This is the meaning of liberation. Yet the point of sudden enlightenment is actualizing enlightenment in the midst of conditions. In and of itself, enlightening experience is the relative extreme of delusion.

Dogen said that "people become buddhas and buddhas become people." This is how it works. If enlightenment changes anything, it's not enlightenment. He also said that "further, there are people who attain realization upon realization and people who are deluded within delusion."

Both statements are analogous. In terms of carrying out enlightening activity in the midst of ordinary affairs, nothing changes for the awakened person who sees potential and has learned to work with essence directly, whereas ordinary people go along with karmic momentum because they follow their thoughts unawares. Enlightenment is the experience of forgetting thoughts, thinker, knower and known.

What is critical to note is that "realization upon realization" is the mind of delusion. "Deluded within delusion" is reality in terms of Suchness.

Ego eradication is the interruption of self-refying thought constituting the fallacious identity. Function or no, universally selfless true intent constituting reality is that which is glimpsed in the instant of reversion beyond time preceding creation, karma and infinite existence. So "ego death" is the relative cause of enlightenment as well as  the functionality of enlightening activity in the world before and after experiencing the sudden.

Therefore "without ego" does not exist, as Source Mystic notes because "without ego" is conceptually relative to "selfless", in terms of conceivability. The boon of complete perfect enlightenment is not only the elimination of the personality's compulsions, but also because ego can now revert to its true purpose which is to serve the immovable shining unborn nonpsychological awareness in the awake being.

In the opening of his taoist classic "Understanding Reality", Chang Po-tuan wrote, "If you come upon the great elixir without even looking for it, having come upon it, you are a fool if you do not refine it."

This means that sudden enlightenment isn't something to keep, relative to having a self— it is the inconceivable nature of human being (which is a verb). Adapting selflessly to ordinary conditions isn't a matter of precepts or even morality because enlightening activity before or after the sudden is the nature of one's inherent enlightening function, which is inconceivable. In order to do so, it is not only the light of ego-function which is advantageous to keep hidden.

Quote

Is enlightenment a one second process (revolution) or the result of slow daily improvement (evolution)?  Is it a point where you change permanently or can you deteriorate again and drown in your mind days or years after enlightenment? 

So the process before and after the sudden is not separate from its source, having no beginning nor end. Enlightenment is just seeing who is aware— who has always been aglow.

There is no one who is not just this right now. Yet "just this" is not people. Wonder of wonders!

 

 

ed. note: change "result" to "cause" in paragraph 7

Edited January 18, 2018 by deci belle

[Guest thesmileyone]

This is why psychedelics, whilst maybe useful for showing you there is another side to life, are so useless when it comes to enlightenment.
They give you an enlightenment experience...but it rarely stays with you. Hence it is an experience and not a state.

 

When you become enlightened there is no you to go back to.

[Guest thesmileyone]

Yeah. Maybe if you use them once.

 

But people don't. They chase, so they use them more, and it messes your body up. And this is if you don't have a history of psychosis in your family. Many people don't even know that.

 

I can't talk anymore about how I know psychedelics mess you up because I respect the rules here, but I have (fortunatly) never taken them. Lets just say I work with people who have, and their energy is all over the place. I can almost instantly tell if someone has taken psychedelics recently when I work with them. I won't say anymore, so don't ask.

 

I would recommend everyone in society to take say, LSD, or mushrooms once, and once only. The world would probably be a better place. But only once.

 

[AlwaysBeNice]

Nothing can 'make you psychotic' because psychosis is believing in thoughts to a high degree, fueled by trauma/ignorance.

Psychedelics can definitely destabilize things though.

[Nahm]

@thesmileyone I think you’re pinning some people’s troubles on something that is an idea, not an experience. If you tried psychedelics, you would see with more depth & clarity, and you would see the truer sources of their issues. Or, perhaps you’re lumping psychedelics into a drugs category, and unable to make proper distinctions because it’s an idea. Just a thought... I’ve done them numerous times, true. I’ve never done them, also true. 

[Simon Christiansen]

In my own experience. Psychedelics helped me in terms of opening my eyes to new possibilities.
But it's important to realize that they can also give you unneccecary mental baggage.
I had to shed a LOT of such baggage in order to realize the truth. Which is so simple you don't need drugs to understand it. Also, you don't need to abstain from them either, the truth is what is. But what you seek is the knowingness of this truth, and psychedelics can dillude you without you even knowing it.

Also. To answer the question.

Enlightenment is permanent. You realize there is no enlightenment. How can nothing go away?

Edited January 19, 2018 by Simon Christiansen

[deci belle]

Quote

Enlightenment is permanent. You realize there is no enlightenment. How can nothing go away?

Enlightenment is so before the first thought— it doesn't exist after the first thought, I assure you— hahahhaa!!

If it's you experiencing "enlightenment"— it's not enlightenment. If the experience is utterly impersonal~ then there's potential for refinement.

I also assure you that enlightening experience is a cosmic reversion to who you are really is, which is not the person. Is that wonderful? Not yet.

This thread becoming a discussion of drug-aids's validity for spiritual/awareness evolution works fine… enlightening experience is no different— and that goes for how any benefit is to be realized in terms of an experientially transcendent event's aftermath (which is the OP's stated concern). If you think that psychedelics can give you mental baggage… delusion does not miraculously go away after any kind of experience (someone wanted to make a distinction between experience and one's "state" of mind. One's life, not to mention this universe, is impermanent— and it's hardly worth splitting a hair's difference between the two in that regard.

Enlightenment is a HUGE dose of what one's inconceivable nature is. D'ya think experiential knowledge of the absence of nothing is a trifle to get over? The point is, mind is one; enlightened or deluded. Obviously, it's a real challenge for most everybody to just forget to think. That, essentially, is what constitutes seeing one's nature (forgetting thought). Thought is itself what constitutes ego and the whole cluster of psychic patterns constituting the psychological apparatus of the being that is going to die. That's all it amounts to. Drug use can help, yes— but not without the right approach, which is different for each individual. Some don't need it, and others should absolutely defer.

Otherwise, there really is a benefit to a proper introduction for employing effective drug usage when psychotropics are taken at the right time for the right reason by certain people.

But there is this thing called topic drift, so in getting back to what the above post touched on…

As Simon said (heehee), in his last line, when you see that there is no thing (matter)~ then what's the matter? Knowing that is liberation. It's real.

Contemplating, or just accepting Simon's no enlightenment is fine as an intellectual abstract, but there really is a point of illumination. Being jerked around by psychotropics, even if by chance one IS jolted out of one's mind (in the most beneficial way) to trigger a mystic vision beyond the self-referenced to arrive at seeing one's impersonal, inconceivable nature— is beyond a meaningless waste unless it can be beneficially incorporated into one's life. If one is not ready to harness one's innate inconceivable potential in a VERY real way …which is not so obvious, there will be no benefit.

"Enlightenment" is not a kick— something to tick off one's bucket-list. Even those imbued with the secret light of virtuous reception of open sincerity are already practicing the authentic spiritual operations beyond convention without even bothering with concerns about seeing one's nature (with or without the aid of drugs) before sudden enlightenment. Enlightenment is not the deal. It's merely the result of seeing reality as is and adapting to ordinary conditions impersonally. I sense there is a faction on this forum that considers enlightenment a "thing". The potential for enlightenment is what karma is made of. It's not somewhere else. It's not something you get from anything, much less drugs. Situations are already your own mind. It's inconceivable. Wonder of wonders. Buddhism calls this fact the Supreme Vehicle of buddhas~ it's not within the capacity of hipsters with a penchant to employ ultimate ambitions for unconventional kicks to enter into.

Yet one must be prepared somehow. As if.  I would suggest cultivating a sense of wonder imbued with beatitude.

How might one come to such a "state"?

It's called self-refinement. Self-refinement has nothing to do with good or bad, right or wrong, before or after~ it's a matter of open sincerity.

At any rate, Smileyone said, speaking of ingesting drugs:

Quote

They give you an enlightenment experience...but it rarely stays with you. Hence it is an experience and not a state.

I must disagree with this absolutely fallacious statement at the first word— and there is nothing I could possibly add to that. I've already addressed the last sentence in the above quote.

As for "…but it rarely stays with you.", this is the concern of the OP— and a wonderful insight! This is also a key point of contemplation for authentic practice to arrive at the production of the flowering of potential in the midst of ordinary situations that only you can know.

People who have not seen their nature rarely conceive of the thought that others can, have, and will see Reality beyond any self-reified conditionality and apply that real knowledge to everyday ordinary situations unbeknownst to anyone. Secret practice by the light of true potential is inconceivable practice, based on Reality. It is not a matter of psychologically perceived postures in terms of conventions of good and bad.

Take drugs, then forget drugs. They will never help you get anything of lasting value. Enlightenment is no different: see your nature on your own (because there is nothing to be transmitted being that essence is literally no-thing), then profoundly seek instruction on how to apply its potential.

Trying to hang on to any experience, or state, for that matter, is CLINGING. Clinging to an hallucination (be that of a temporal or even absolute nature), is ALREADY delusion. Yet delusion, this one thing (creation) right here and now, is all there is to work with, in terms of enlightening activity. This is the work of buddhas, and there is no one here who is not already a buddha where he or she stands AS IS. Enlightenment is what is reading these words right now. Of course, if you do not have enough power to see it, there is no benefit— yet it is so whether one knows it or not.

Clinging is a mental disease that only serves to strengthen the delusion of having a self. The essential definition of the word delusion is being ignorant of the fact of one's ignorance. Yet the knowledge of one's state of true ignorance (not-knowing) is enlightenment. Enlightenment isn't the mystery— creation is the mystery!!

The point of really experiencing the inconceivability of the nature of the absolute is to see who you really are as who you really are: it's not you. So who is the knowledge? Awareness is the nature of the selfless. Awake is what is inconceivably so.

Quote

Enlightenment is permanent. You realize there is no enlightenment. How can nothing go away?

Enlightenment is actually none other than your essential nature right now— it is unborn; death doesn't exist either. Simon's statement encompasses the idea of the riddle; I don't have the gift of simplicity-- but I go much further in terms of approaching its application —that's my deal.

Experience of the absolute is not permanent relative to created karmic evolution in practical mnemonic terms by the individual, but for those who are blessed with inconceivable wonder and begin to enter into its light, living and aware— even as other vie for experiential proofs for the sake of adventure, endless selfless transformations in the midst of karmic bondage are the norm, independent of any instantaneous flash of absolute reality. Some are born knowing. Yet a lifetime is not much more than an instantaneous illusional flash of the dregs of created energy, whereas self-refinement is the process of going in reverse. Some call that alchemy.

What taoism calls spiritual immortality is a quest through the actualization of a partnership with creation in such a fashion as to use (steal), incrementally, creation's essential potential, bit by bit, by virtue of one's selfless adaption to ordinary situations. It's not good or bad, but just in seeing its potential (and not using it). Buddhism calls this "saving energy". It's the "sparks" of mystical Judaism. There really is something to this enlightenment thing if you know how to not-do it.

It's your mind before the first thought— that's what sees Reality. The trick is to see it when it arises spontaneously, whenever that may occur, over and over and over, until its source becomes stabilized as the world-at-large. Taoism says that "the world is the sage". Reality looks exactly the same as delusion, so it's not a matter of appearances. When you see it, there has never been a context for the OP's concern for gain or loss.

 

 

ed note: typo in 5th; add the word "usage" in the 6th; "yet" in 21st paragraph

Edited January 25, 2018 by deci belle