Science And Spirituality - Which One Makes A Difference?

[asgard94]

I see some people here claim science is no different from every other perspective. But I want to ask you, what is your real motive for taking such a neutral position? saying that science is 'only' a perspective. What are you trying to achieve by bringing down science? Do you want to sit zazen 24/7 and "become the perception" like a tree? A mindless perception that just 'is' like a plant. Really? is that all you got? How about the universe that needs to be explored? How about physics and math, how about countless other solar systems we know nothing about.  Are we actually putting the state of 'empty mind' above a rational/analytical mind that analyzes things, measures things. This state of nothingness-awareness you are all so proud of looks to me more like ignorance than self-actualization. I mean yes, the fundamental nature of reality indeed may be nothing. But it doesn't mean you have to give up your rational capacity and live like a plant. Because giving up on your rational capacity is a mental suicide.
We are born with an intelligence that is naturally creative. Is naturally curious, and is fascinated by the world. And then people who are so dramatically focused on enlightenment say "Don't think. Don't use your reason! Contemplate nothingness." So the alternative to a rational mind is this.. mystical, spiritual model. And this destructive philosophy is designed to take what is the most basic about the human experience, which is perception and turn the perception into the identity. Totally DENYING the rational capacity that organizes what is perceived, and then interacts with it intelligently. You see, the world makes sense! We live in incredible times. A lot of the leg-work has been done. So what would you like to create? What would you really like to do here? But sticking with perception only and saying that nothingness is your identity... Seriously, Just imagine the difference between a culture that idolizes staring at a wall and not moving for hours, and a culture that idolizes thinking and rational capacity. 
Who built the world?  It is the people who did the thinking. Measuring. Figuring out how everything works.
Who built the airplanes? Was it the people thinking, or was it the people attempting to escape the existence by defaulting to perception? 'defaulting' to consciousness.. Because that's the invitation to spirituality. It is to give up your intelligence, give up your capacity to think critically and become a vegetable. And even though that vegetable is relaxing, it's suicide! And if you don't care about living then that makes sense. That's why spirituality exists, because existence is terrifying. And since you don't want to THINK, and Examine and investigate and use your intelligence to overcome and deal with the problems in life, then you look for some spiritual 'answer', to do that for you.. and it works! Because its suicidal. You don't want to exist anyway so rather than taking courage to kill yourself you go towards spirituality, so that you can live a mental death. You can commit mental suicide..  Perception is nothing. Life is literally nothing without this rational capacity. Your capacity to choose, remember, analyze. That is what creates the world. And the fight you are up against, is the continual attempt to trade your intelligence for some kind of solution. And yet you don't realize that your natural intelligence IS your solution! The only problem with that is... You HAVE to THINK. You have to put effort in it. 

spiritual: - I am the perception....
rational: - yeah but we need to fix the refrigerator.

spiritual: - you'll have to call somebody else.

rational:- well how are you gonna eat?

spiritual:- I don't know.. I am the perception... food will just come..

rational:- oh the roof is leaking! 

spiritual:- well that's okay I'll just perceive the water dripping on me...

rational:-  But you're gonna get hypothermia! 

spiritual:- It's okay... I'll just be cold. I am perception.

 

<--- Nobody actually lives this way! Because we're REALLY intelligent. So perception is already the case, you're here. You exist. Now, what do you want to create? What do you want to explore? what are you curious about. The only problem with any of these questions is that in order to investigate them you HAVE TO THINK.. And you can. You can sit down and figure anything out. It might not be easy at first, but that's what learning is. You can do anything you put your mind to, INCLUDING commit mental suicide.. Through spiritual ideas of 'perception is my identity. I am nothingness.' It's the simplest way to feel like everything's okay. And it doesn't work, unless you want to die. Because it is mental suicide..

So please say no more about how science and reason is 'only' a perspective. It is much more than that. Science and reason is the fundamental essence of our existence on this planet as rational, intelligent organisms. And by downgrading the importance of rational capacity you are destroying the very essence of what it means to be an intelligent human being. That's all I had to say. You are free to share your thoughts... 

Edited February 27, 2016 by asgard94

[Leo Gura]

The idea is not to do away with science, but to simply acknowledge it's limitations and transcend into post-rational development. Science is useful, and it's here to stay, but it is not complete and will never be complete because it's very foundation is built upon false premises.

To frame this a battle between science and spirituality is to miss the point.

Epistemology and philosophy of science -- which very few rational people have seriously studied -- has clearly delineated the limitations of science as a discipline. No truth claims can be made about the existential or metaphysical nature of reality via science. Rigorous science itself acknowledges this. Science can only make approximate predictions about how reality functions. It can never say what reality actually is.

[asgard94]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

To frame this a battle between science and spirituality is to miss the point.

Indeed... But I wrote this because I feel like people underestimate the value of rational capacity and they try to get away sticking only with spiritual side of things. Which may be very comfortable, but it can also become very delusive and misleading. Just like you mentioned in your video last time.. The key is probably to find a balance between the two.

Edited February 27, 2016 by asgard94

[Leo Gura]

@asgard94 Certainly being rational is better than being dumb. But rationality has it's limits. As it turns out, these limits are quite serious and dangerous. Humanity may very well destroy itself from excess rationalism. And on a personal level, excess rationalism is ruining the quality of your life. So this is not just an abstract concern. The problem is that rational people don't usually see outside their paradigm and therefore don't see the damage that their paradigm causes themselves.

[asgard94]

Epistemology and philosophy of science - I have to read more about it. But I believe you are correct. Perhaps we need to also look at the consequences of excess spirituality and how it would affect humanity in total. Excess spirituality would probably lead to something like The Archaic Revival. And at that point, everything would seem beautiful and natural. Yet without taking care of their science, these people would easily go extinct. If not from diseases then from an asteroid heading on their way. So finding a balance seems like a MUST.  I have not come to that level yet. I could not find the balance element. But I am working on it!

Edited February 27, 2016 by asgard94

[TheFrown]

Yes, balance is key. The issue becomes when your foundation is built on extensively complex rulesets that are littered with contradictory claims and output results. Thats not to say that complex rulesets cant be usefull in many circumstances but when you become one dimensional in your thinking you miss out on a literally an infinite amount of potential neural routings that can give you a new perspective on a situation.

Science is awesome. But its not Gospel. 

[Ajax]

Science has also created increasingly effective means to not only destroy ourselves but our life support system as well. Humanity as a whole is not so intelligent... Happiness, fulfillment, peace, security, stability and harmony are still very elusive dreams..

No faction has not fully solve those problems, so to me yes science is only a perspective in regard to many issues.

However, the value of skepticism is highly undervalued in spiritual pursuits and one of the most important and necessary qualities to have on this journey. That is one thing I wish more people would have.

[Mad Cat]

@asgard94 There's not much left to say, because Leo came in and killed the mic, quite concisely I might add. Indeed, to attack spirituality, or to perceive that science is under attack, is to miss the point. Both disciplines work together and are necessary for the survival and evolution of human life. I have never seen anyone on this forum dispute that science is a wonderful tool for understanding the external world and inventing pragmatic technology to transcend our physical limitations. Spirituality is also a wonderful tool for understanding the inner world of the psyche and inventing pragmatic practices to transcend our mental limitations.

A critical point Leo made is that excessive rationalism blinds itself to its own faults, clinging too tightly to its limitations and damaging itself and the world in the process. Spiritual practice challenges to those limitations, which can be deeply frustrating to a mind which is convinced that everything that exists beyond it's current paradigm is pointless and "dumb". This is not the same thing as spiritual thought disclaiming the efficacy of science within most mundane situations like in your examples. It is only when rationality tries to overstep its bounds (when it confuses the map with the territory) and claims that science is the ultimate, infallible arbiter of what constitutes reality, it is only then that spirituality slaps science back down a peg.

If you're interested in learning more about the philosophy of science and where it has mistakenly taken baseless assumptions to be indelible facts, I recommend Science Set Free by Rupert Sheldrake. You may not agree with all of his arguments, but they are valid and thought-provoking to say the least, and you will learn a great deal about the historical evolution of the philosophy of science.

[Henri]

The best book on this topic; The marriage of sense and soul by Ken Wilber.

[Akim]

I think true science and true spirituality have the same basic core: increasing understanding and awareness and removing bullshit. Fortunately in science there was some kind of progress in recent years, there is a somewhat good community of people who are trying to increase understanding. But most people still fall for pseudoscience. In spirituality it is much worse than that, almost everything I think is pseudosprituality and you only can find nuggets of truth here and there. The problem may be is that it is easy to show experiment but it is much harder to communicate internal world. So science is in much, much, much better shape right now.

[xXxXx]

Science has it's limits, if you know science theory (Thomas S. Kuhn did profound work here): it is only an approximation of reality, a spiral swirling around the truth of nature. You sound very practical, spirituality is not practical at all, it is not a basic need as your suggested skills, like gathering food.

I count myself as highly science oriented, in my opinion it is interpretation which divides or unites spirituality and science, for example the laws of thermodynamics:

Energy can not be created, it cannot be destroyed, it can only be transformed: all Energy which will ever exist exists already. This is pure physics, yet for me this is a mindblowing spiritual thing.

[Henri]

Science is of the senses or extensions of the senses, so quite limited.

[asgard94]

17 hours ago, Akim said:

I think true science and true spirituality have the same basic core: increasing understanding and awareness and removing bullshit. Fortunately in science there was some kind of progress in recent years, there is a somewhat good community of people who are trying to increase understanding. But most people still fall for pseudoscience. In spirituality it is much worse than that, almost everything I think is pseudosprituality and you only can find nuggets of truth here and there. The problem may be is that it is easy to show experiment but it is much harder to communicate internal world. So science is in much, much, much better shape right now.

"Science is huuuuge!" ~ Donald Trump

[FindingPeace]

On 27/02/2016 at 4:44 AM, asgard94 said:

How about the universe that needs to be explored?

Why does it need exploring? Who wrote this 'need' in to a rule that we have to obey?

On 27/02/2016 at 4:44 AM, asgard94 said:

We are born with an intelligence that is naturally creative. Is naturally curious, and is fascinated by the world.

And in our arrogant human way we believe that we own everything and have the right and obligation to impose that 'intelligence' on to reality, just because we can.

Just because we can do something doesn't make it an obligation or even entitle us to do so. But our species believes that if is can do something, then it must do it...

[asgard94]

2 hours ago, FindingPeace said:

Why does it need exploring? Who wrote this 'need' in to a rule that we have to obey?

Then don't explore. Sit home, don't even make money, who said you need to survive? Don't look at the stars or wonder about anything at all. Just sit and die. Good luck! I've got some work to do.

[Isle of View]

@asgard94

I encourage you to see this video:

 

 

Science is "only" another discipline to approach the existence. Eventually science re-integrates counciousness as a component of the All.

Wake up! 

Edited February 29, 2016 by Isle of View

[FindingPeace]

11 minutes ago, asgard94 said:

Just sit and die. Good luck! I've got some work to do.

This raises a good point actually.

I mean we can just sit here, find peace with reality, as it is, and eventually die. Or we can spend our lives relentlessly questioning and searching for answers and meaning in everything..and then eventually die. Either way, whatever we do, we'll die anyway. It'll all amount to nothing in the scheme of things.

Don't get me wrong, science is fascinating, and it has it's uses. But sometimes I think people spend too  much of their lives neurotically expending time and energy searching for answers and rearranging their circumstances, beliefs and knowledge ad infinitum.. and fail to see what is there in front of them the whole time. Rather than basking in the beauty of what is around us thay have to dismantle it, see beyond it, question and analyse it. It comes across as exhausting.

At the end of the day it's all a choice what we want to pursue. Either way the outcome is the same. We only have so much time as a living entity, as a conscious-awareness. So I say why not change down a gear, start to embrace what is right under our noses and not waste quite so much time looking for what may or may not be there.  Waste less time relentlessly just rearranging shit in our minds and around us, and stop, look, and appreciate reality, as it is.

I came to a personal realisation recently that the world, life, reality is a beautiful thing. And that there is nothing more beyond that beauty. Conscious-awareness gives us the capability to experience that beauty for a limited time. But so few people even see it, never even realise what peace of mind feels like.

[Isle of View]

20 minutes ago, FindingPeace said:

I mean we can just sit here, find peace with reality, as it is, and eventually die. Or we can spend our lives relentlessly questioning and searching for answers and meaning in everything..and then eventually die. Either way, whatever we do, we'll die anyway. It'll all amount to nothing in the scheme of things.

Another option would be, you utilize your insights to create and have and share nice experiences.